Post by: foliver on April 09, 2022, 09:43:08 AM
Traveling with my wife at 200 miles from home
Yesterday the bike dies in the highway after 2 short cuts.
Then starts again and runs ok and we arrive to the city to visit it.
Today it started ok, after 25 min of soft city riding dies again
I checked connections, all ok
Fuel lines ok
Dies suddently what can I do? I’m returning home now, I’m at 200 miles…
Thanks for the help
Post by: johnny on April 09, 2022, 10:07:13 AM
last time i heard of this it turned out to be the petrol pump was really pumping diesel instead of petrol...
you are lucky only 200 miles from home... that dude was 2000 miles from home...
j o
Post by: Scott_ on April 09, 2022, 10:47:39 AM
For the prior, is it happening when turning the bars? could be wiring at the ignition switch near the headstock, wire can break inside the insulation from repeated turning of the bars.
Also another possibility could be the HES wiring or HES itself.
For the later, check the connector for the fuel pump under the tank... this connection is common for flaky electrical connectivity causing the fuel pump to not run.
Post by: Chaos on April 09, 2022, 01:18:20 PM
Post by: foliver on April 09, 2022, 09:40:19 PM
well, i'm at home now, she brings me.....
After my post, i bought a contact cleaner, and i apply in the fuel pump connector, then ( after the time to buy the contact cleaner and apply it) it restarts.
Wife up ( both perspiring, hot) and lets go, i went to a gas station just out of town to start the drive back home.
I turned off the bike, full the tank, and then, no more start. The starter worked, but no the pump.
Ok, lets put in one side the tank ( full!!!!) and spray all the connectors again, including the CDI
bike starts again
And then i've done the 150 miles back without problems, just 8 ot 10 short cut offs ( half a sec each)
the olny strange thing, is that in one moment waiting for my wife, the bike idling, the fan starts, and suddently, the bike turns off.
So, reading scott and Chaos post, is not strange that the probem was the HES, cause all times the cut off appeared was in hot environment
Thanks a lot for your comments, i want to clear it!!
Post by: BearTrap on April 11, 2022, 01:05:20 PM
Post by: frankenduck on April 11, 2022, 06:30:39 PM
Take off the right side cover and with the bike idling and shake the connector to see if that causes issues.
HES issue usually won't give your intermittent (half sec) failures like that. It is usually heat that causes HES issues so when it kills the bike then the bike won't restart and run again until you wait several minutes and the HES has cooled down.
Flaky ignition switch can also cause intermittent running.
If you determine that it is the fuel tank connector then you can replace it with another connector. Here's an example:
http://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/fls.connector/fls.connector.htm
Post by: alexg on April 16, 2022, 04:26:06 PM
Post by: foliver on April 18, 2022, 09:26:43 PM
Fuel tank connector. Contact cleaner won't help. The failure is usually inside the connector. (Ask johnny.)
Take off the right side cover and with the bike idling and shake the connector to see if that causes issues.
HES issue usually won't give your intermittent (half sec) failures like that. It is usually heat that causes HES issues so when it kills the bike then the bike won't restart and run again until you wait several minutes and the HES has cooled down.
Flaky ignition switch can also cause intermittent running.
If you determine that it is the fuel tank connector then you can replace it with another connector. Here's an example:
http://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/fls.connector/fls.connector.htm
hi Franken, thanks for your answer.
"Take off the right side cover and with the bike idling and shake the connector to see if that causes issues"
i've done it, without problem, but toorrow i'll do it again. Thanks for the connector tip.
What is strange, is that the problems, in the highway or in the city, happens between 12 and 15 hs ( when the weather is hot), i remember that, because i weas sweating when it died.
The 2 times the bike died idling was in hot and stationary situations....
Post by: foliver on April 18, 2022, 09:27:30 PM
is the big plug to the Jetronic ECM fully seated? That is located on top of the battery, accessible from the LHS removing the side panel.
Hi Alexg, yes, it's fully seated, i checked that!! thanks!
Post by: frankenduck on April 18, 2022, 10:06:08 PM
hi Franken, thanks for your answer.
"Take off the right side cover and with the bike idling and shake the connector to see if that causes issues"
i've done it, without problem, but toorrow i'll do it again. Thanks for the connector tip.
What is strange, is that the problems, in the highway or in the city, happens between 12 and 15 hs ( when the weather is hot), i remember that, because i weas sweating when it died.
The 2 times the bike died idling was in hot and stationary situations....
Things expand when they get hot so if if it is heat-related (no guarantee that it is though) then that wouldn't be too strange.
Another thing that if it's going out will fail when it gets hot is the ignition coils. But since each cylinder has it's own coil it would probably just run like crap on two cylinders if a coil were failing.
If it's not the fuel tank connector then I'm still thinking and flaky ignition switch is a likely suspect. I didn't reread the whole thread but have you cleaned the ignition switch yet?
Post by: foliver on April 18, 2022, 10:27:50 PM
[/quote]
hi, yes, it was done, all clean,and tight......
can be the HES cable?, when i paint the frame, i felt the cable of the hes was too tight, and i was feeling affraid, that the pvc of the cable peels off...
Post by: frankenduck on April 18, 2022, 10:37:22 PM
Also check/reseat the connector to the ICU up by the steering head.
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/c2gAAOSw62xhicCk/s-l1600.jpg)
Post by: foliver on April 18, 2022, 10:52:46 PM
txs Franken, i've cleaned the ICU with electronic cleaner, and checked it seats firm the connector.
do you think, if the cable of the HES is flaky, it can be replaced ? or it's better to have a new unit and restart from cero?
Post by: Laitch on April 18, 2022, 11:45:41 PM
. . . when i paint the frame, i felt the cable of the hes was too tight, and i was feeling affraid, that the pvc of the cable peels off...You'll need to check the cable for abrasion before before your feelings run amok and cause you any more sleepless nights. :laughing4-giggles: When you painted the frame, did you dismount the ground cables attached to the frame backbone under the tank before you painted it?
Replacing parts like the HES or fuel injection relay before you have determined conclusively that they are defective can waste both time and money. So test them first using information gathered from the troubleshooting guide here or from various posts on the forum.
Post by: frankenduck on April 19, 2022, 12:09:43 AM
txs Franken, i've cleaned the ICU with electronic cleaner, and checked it seats firm the connector.
do you think, if the cable of the HES is flaky, it can be replaced ? or it's better to have a new unit and restart from cero?
There's shielding around the HES wiring (similar to coax wiring) and if that's trashed then I'd be inclined to replace the whole HES if you think that's the issue. Look for a used one on Ebay - they're very expensive new from BMW - $600 USD.
Post by: foliver on April 19, 2022, 05:56:30 AM
You'll need to check the cable for abrasion before before your feelings run amok and cause you any more sleepless nights. :laughing4-giggles: When you painted the frame, did you dismount the ground cables attached to the frame backbone under the tank before you painted it?
Replacing parts like the HES or fuel injection relay before you have determined conclusively that they are defective can waste both time and money. So test them first using information gathered from the troubleshooting guide here or from various posts on the forum.
hi Laitch.
Today i'll check for abrassion in the cable, in a conclusive way is the tightest cable in the bike..
No, my bad, i've not dismantled the ground cables, i've dismantles, and polished each of the cables and the frame, and applied deoxit before painting the frame. If you think this can cause a problem, i can do it again..
I will read again how to test it, the hair drier test, just after ignition, when the engine has not reached the woorking temp, is a conclusive test?
Post by: foliver on April 19, 2022, 05:58:40 AM
There's shielding around the HES wiring (similar to coax wiring) and if that's trashed then I'd be inclined to replace the whole HES if you think that's the issue. Look for a used one on Ebay - they're very expensive new from BMW - $600 USD.
today will be the day of full inspection of the cable.
I've seen this part for my bike and model, https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boignsen-k049edl.htm
Can do the trick, if the cable is flaky?
Post by: beemuker on April 19, 2022, 05:27:09 PM
Post by: Barrieb on April 24, 2022, 12:48:02 PM
Post by: foliver on April 24, 2022, 01:13:18 PM
My breather pipe is new, but I’ll check it anyway.
This days I’m out of home and cannot put my fingers on it.
Thanks for your reply!
Post by: Barrieb on April 24, 2022, 01:47:21 PM
There are many many more experienced people on the forum, who could advise, might be worth reading on the previous posts
Cheers
Barrie
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 24, 2022, 02:16:40 PM
You said earlier that the fan comes on just before it cuts out? could it be the temperature circuit? that will cut the engine out after starting the fan?
There are many many more experienced people on the forum, who could advise, might be worth reading on the previous posts
Cheers
Barrie
There is a safety shut down of the engine if the temperature keeps rising after the fan is turned on. I think it's written up somewhere in the owner's manual.
If you are having a problem with that function, it will probably be with the temperature sensor or the temperature relay. Have you checked them? Also, there could be a problem with the cap on the filler which is supposed to release pressure from the system.
If indeed the temperature is getting that high, you need to look at the radiator and the thermostat. I have owned motobricks with enough bugs in the cooling fins of the radiator to feed a family for a month. Also, if a previous owner used well water in the system it could have massive mineral deposits in the coolant passages in the radiator.
Last, one of the functions not understood by most owners is that there is a radiator bypass that allows the coolant to circulate while the engine warms up. This is to allow more uniform warming of the engine. One of the jobs of the thermostat is to close off this bypass so all the coolant in the circuit goes to the radiator to release it's heat load. If the thermostat doesn't open enough to close the bypass cooling is severely reduced.
Post by: frankenduck on April 24, 2022, 02:34:43 PM
Warning lamp at 111C 232F
Cap blows at 120C 248F
It supposedly shuts down automatically somewhere above 120C but I've never tested that and don't know that for a fact.
Post by: foliver on April 24, 2022, 03:52:51 PM
If you are having a problem with that function, it will probably be with the temperature sensor or the temperature relay. Have you checked them? Also, there could be a problem with the cap on the filler which is supposed to release pressure from the system.
HI, the temp sensor is new, and the relay is a used substitute of mine.
6 years ago ( before letting the bike on the shed for 6 years) one very hot summer one day in a red light the bike turned off suddently, i thought my temp sensor or relay were bad, and a safety cut off happened. So i bought a used relay, and tested the fan.
All seemed to works ok.
Back to now, after the 6 years passed i overhauled lots of things, now i changed the temp sensor for a new one, dismantle the fan grease the bearings, and the test was ok.
The thermostat is new, tested and works ok.
BUT i don't know how is the radiator inside, may be i can take it off and send it to clean the interior to a professional.
How can i know if the cap is ok? i've replaced the orings with a euromotoelectrics kit.
But the cap doesn't seems to be the problem, cause if i open it the bike doesn't starts anyway ( after a shut off), it only turns on after 15 minutes or so.
Yesterday it turned off again after some minutes of agile riding. After 15 minutes, all normal, and i went home at low revs....
Post by: frankenduck on April 24, 2022, 04:17:55 PM
How can i know if the cap is ok?
It will blow before the cluster warning light comes on.
Post by: Laitch on April 24, 2022, 05:13:44 PM
i've replaced the orings with a euromotoelectrics kit.Are these the gaskets you replaced, oliver? Photos from Euro Motoelectric.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-240422171037.png)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-240422171103.png)
You don't need to send your radiator anywhere. You can flush it yourself. When is the last time you flushed it and replaced the coolant?
Have you done the Hall sensor test as indicated in the trouble shooting guide?
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on April 24, 2022, 06:21:20 PM
Start by getting a cooling system cleaner at the auto parts store. Drain the coolant and put in distilled water and the cleaner. Follow the instructions. When the flush is done, fill with more distilled water and run it for 5 minutes and drain it.
To clean the fins, remove the radiator and put it in a pan. Fill the pan with white vinegar until the fins are covered. Let it soak for a couple hours, then rinse it spraying water from the back to the front to flush all the dirt and bugs out. If you rinse from the front it will just push everything farther into the fins. Don't use a high pressure to rinse, it will damage the fins. A garden hose from 2 meters away is as strong as needed.
About the distilled water. If you have a cistern and collect rain water, that should work as well. Just make sure there is no dirt in the water and you should be okay.
Post by: daveson on April 24, 2022, 08:46:50 PM
With a screw driver on an injector, and it's handle to your ear, you should hear it clicking on and off with the start button pressed. If not, the fuel injection relay wants a look.
You want to note if the temperature warning light ever comes on, and if the fan blades feel stiff to turn.
Post by: foliver on April 24, 2022, 10:00:03 PM
It will blow before the cluster warning light comes on.
txs!, got it
Post by: foliver on April 24, 2022, 10:03:26 PM
Are these the gaskets you replaced, oliver? Photos from Euro Motoelectric.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-240422171037.png)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-240422171103.png)
You don't need to send your radiator anywhere. You can flush it yourself. When is the last time you flushed it and replaced the coolant?
Have you done the Hall sensor test as indicated in the trouble shooting guide?
I have bought this components for the tank cap:
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/ft-gasketkit461.htm
i have flushed the tank some month ago, but just with distilled water, before using the final coolant, but i need to do it properly, as Mighty suggest
I was not able to test the Hall sensor yet, wife working, kids at home, and my job....
Post by: foliver on April 24, 2022, 10:05:28 PM
Flushing isn't that hard, just takes some time and supplies.
Start by getting a cooling system cleaner at the auto parts store. Drain the coolant and put in distilled water and the cleaner. Follow the instructions. When the flush is done, fill with more distilled water and run it for 5 minutes and drain it.
To clean the fins, remove the radiator and put it in a pan. Fill the pan with white vinegar until the fins are covered. Let it soak for a couple hours, then rinse it spraying water from the back to the front to flush all the dirt and bugs out. If you rinse from the front it will just push everything farther into the fins. Don't use a high pressure to rinse, it will damage the fins. A garden hose from 2 meters away is as strong as needed.
About the distilled water. If you have a cistern and collect rain water, that should work as well. Just make sure there is no dirt in the water and you should be okay.
I¡ll follow your procedure, thanks Mighty, i want to cooling system ok....i didn't do it in the main dismantling cause it looks goog, my bad, just for peace of mind should be done...
Post by: foliver on April 24, 2022, 10:14:22 PM
During the 15 minutes while the pump won't run, check for power on both sides of fuse 6 with the start button pressed (for fuel pump, second from bottom, 7.5 Amp) If you only have power on one side, the fuse holder is dirty or loose, replace the fuse regardless. If no power on either side, the fuel injection relay might want looking at. A loose fuse might not be able to cope with the added load of the fan coming on (then the pump might work with the fan unplugged, not recommended but for a test)
With a screw driver on an injector, and it's handle to your ear, you should hear it clicking on and off with the start button pressed. If not, the fuel injection relay wants a look.
You want to note if the temperature warning light ever comes on, and if the fan blades feel stiff to turn.
Txd Daveson, good test. I'll put the multimeter on the bike, and follow it, seems symple and clear.
I've cleaned all the fuses, and sand them+deoxit on the main repair. I never thought about the fuse holder, i'll rear on how it looks from the back
I never look at the fuel injection relay....
The fan was dismantled and the motor was oiled, the blades are running free, and the system tested ok a month ago....
Post by: frankenduck on April 24, 2022, 10:17:07 PM
Are these the gaskets you replaced, oliver? Photos from Euro Motoelectric.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-240422171037.png)
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/4/1601-240422171103.png)
When I had issues with a radiator cap I just bought the whole radiator cap assembly - part 17111464720. ($25 from BMW last time I bought one) Despite the gaskets showing as separate parts in the parts diagram, when you buy a new cap it includes new gaskets. In my case the radiator cap kept blowing prematurely so I just bought the whole thing.
Post by: foliver on April 25, 2022, 09:19:34 AM
When I had issues with a radiator cap I just bought the whole radiator cap assembly - part 17111464720. ($25 from BMW last time I bought one) Despite the gaskets showing as separate parts in the parts diagram, when you buy a new cap it includes new gaskets. In my case the radiator cap kept blowing prematurely so I just bought the whole thing.
sorry guys, Laitch, i misanderstood, i was speaking about the fuel cap, not the radiator one.
I didn't do any maintenance to the radiator cap...
Post by: foliver on September 18, 2023, 11:59:25 PM
After lots of testings, I decided to buy a new HALL sensor.
After disconnecting the old one from the harness, I cleaned the harness connector with dioxit 5, just in case.
The crazy thing, is that the hall has the advance out of standard position
here a picture.
hall sensor.jpeg (50.38 kB . 487x576 - viewed 312 times)So I installed the new, in the correct position.
I was amazed, how different the ride was!
the bike gains lot of power and reaction.
is crazy because I drove it for 12 years, with the engine muffled, now the bike is more alive than ever, and it has lower consumption.
All in all, it was the Hall sensor.
After that, not more hesitation during hot days, engine keeps alive.
I want to thanks all the members that helps me to understand the problem.
Post by: Laitch on September 19, 2023, 10:27:43 AM
The crazy thing, is that the hall has the advance out of standard position.It's likely that the old sensor still functions, so now you have a spare, maybe. icon_cheers
Post by: foliver on September 19, 2023, 10:40:27 AM
One strange thing happens in all this situation.
When I decided to replace the sensor, I realize that the sensor connection to the harness was hide under the frame. So this was the only connection that I didn’t clean with deoxit5 when I overhaul the bike…...may be cleaning it solved the problem? I don’t know.
Now as you said, I’ll keep the used sensor, and even I’ll bring it if I do a long travel….
Thanks Laitch!
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on September 19, 2023, 10:47:03 AM