MOTOBRICK.COM
TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: redwolfstudio on March 16, 2022, 12:08:40 PM
-
Hi everyone,
So having read a bunch of posts and advice here on what to do if the bike doesn’t start…am starting to wonder if my brick is seized!?
Yet earlier on, during my refurbishing (bike has been sitting outside for 3-4 years according to previous owner) I was able to turn the camshafts to check the valves gaps relatively easily. Today it won’t budge! I did try starting the bike a few days ago after having checked that the starter motor spins, and nothing. A bunch of clicking noises and zip.
So, tried rolling the bike in highest gear to see if it turns but no luck!
Is my next step to start taking everything apart again and all the way to pistons? I gave up going that far when I started after reading sometimes the bolts holding the camshafts block get rusty and a different set of trouble occurs.
Is it possible the oil I used it too thick and prevents movement 20w50 (based in Sweden).
If not it seems like the next logical step is open heart surgery doesn’t it?
Thanx for any advice:-)
-
Have you seen the engine actually turn? Does the rear wheel turn easily in neutral?
Is one of the cylinders hydraulic locked with oil or fuel? Try turning the engine with the starter with the spark plugs removed.
-
Hi, yes the wheel turns fine in neutral. I rolled the bike without any issues.
-
The spark plugs are off, but haven’t tried to start the bike. Will do in the morning!
Thank you!
-
Tried starting as you mentioned without the spark plugs and same thing, no go. Just clicking sounds.
I was able to move the camshafts when oil was removed, check valves gap and all was fine.
Now it doesn’t budge with the new oil.
-
Did you mean to wire the battery directly to starter with plugs off?
-
Are you certain the battery is fully charged? Are you certain the transmission is in Neutral when you try to start it. Can you roll the moto easily when the clutch hand lever is pulled in?
-
Hi, yes, it’s a brand new battery and in neutral when I push start.
I can put it in gear, hold the clutch and roll it easily.
-
If it is in Neutral when you use the key to start and it makes buzzing noises, your new battery is not a good battery or your battery connections are not tight, or the starter connections are not tight, or your starter is too dirty inside to operate, or your starter relay isn't working. Start your investigation with the most simple—the electrical connections—then go deeper.
-
Hi, it a 12V 300CCA /21Ah brand new.
I tested and cleaned the starter.
I tightened the connections.
I cleaned all the connections.
New spark plugs and injectors.
-
just a thought:
put scoot on center stand
remove spark plugs.
put transmission in 5th gear
try and rotate engine by manually turning the rear wheel, in direction of forward travel.
you may need someone to steady the bike as you apply force required to rotate wheel.
-
Yes I did try that and could not get the wheel to move.
Now at the beginning of my restoration when oil was drained I was able to rotate the camshafts to check the valves, so I assume it’s not seized.
-
I’m wondering if my neg battery lead is in the place…it’s currently attached to the right of the ignition coils onto the main casing, close to edge of foot rest area, along with a few other ground connections.
Am I doing this right?
-
I’m wondering if my neg battery lead is in the place…it’s currently attached to the right of the ignition coils onto the main casing, close to edge of foot rest area, along with a few other ground connections.
Am I doing this right?
Yes. The neg battery lead connects to the transmission housing near the coils/shift lever.
-
Thank you 🙏
-
So if one of the cylinders is hydraulic locked with oil or fuel how would you fix that issue?
-
So if one of the cylinders is hydraulic locked with oil or fuel how would you fix that issue?
Hydrolock can occur in several different ways so you first need to discover how the hydro-locking is occuring. That means slowly disassembling the engine. The attached photo shows one result of hydro-locking described in the thread at this link (http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=7661.msg53825#msg53825). The piston rod was deformed; the solution was replacing the affected part. The engine still ran despite this damage! Hydro-lock is not the only reason an engine can seem seized. Transmission or engine shaft gears can jam rotation, valves or rings can break then jam piston action; that's why you will need to disassemble and analyze parts if you intend to pursue this line of reasoning.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-180322120530.jpeg)
The rings could be oil-starved so before you start to disassemble, position the moto upright, remove each spark plug, saturate each cylinder with engine oil or fogging oil, do not replace the spark plugs then leave and do something else for a few days. When you come back to the moto, find out if the starter will rotate the engine with the spark plugs removed, or if turning the rear wheel with the transmission in fifth gear and the spark plugs removed will rotate the engine. If not, it is likely an orderly disassembly and inspection of the engine could be necessary.
-
Thank you so much for the explanation.
I will not give up, just a longer term project now.
-
You say everything was hunky dory BEFORE you put in the oil, could that be our clue?
VERY doubtful that oil in this type engine could be overfilled enough to lock it up.
Clicking noises tend to point toward low voltage.
Maybe test the starter to see if it turns.
-
Clicking noises tend to point toward low voltage.
Maybe test the starter to see if it turns.
Right! Don't forget to check the starter relay for function, too, as was recommended earlier in this thread.
-
I tested the started motor and cleaned it. I opened up the relay and it works…
Since I was able to turn the camshafts earlier on in my project and the oil was drained I am wondering if the oil I put in is too thick 20w50?!
Or is it possible the new battery is simply not adequate?
-
20w50 oil isn't too thick unless the engine is -20 degrees, and even then, it should turn, just real slow.
Did you actually try to run the starter with the spark plugs removed?
How much oil did you put in the engine? I have never heard of an oil change locking up and engine.
-
. . . I was able to turn the camshafts earlier on in my project . . .
Or is it possible the new battery is simply not adequate?
Red, when the transmission is in Neutral, you should be able to turn the camshafts in the correct direction with a wrench on their flats even with the spark plugs installed, but especially if they aren't installed. If you can do that, your battery should be able to do that. If you can do that but your battery cannot do that, then there is a problem with your battery, starter engagement with its auxiliary shaft, electrical connections, or ground connections.
If you cannot turn the camshafts with a wrench on their flats, something in the engine is jammed and disassembly bit-by-bit will be necessary to investigate the cause.
The cause of this malfunction is likely to be a simple one.
-
This is what I'm hearing; you turned the camshafts anti clockwise (looking from the front) with a spanner. Then you did some work on it. Now you can't turn the camshafts anti clockwise in neutral with a spanner (even with the spark plugs removed, therefore eliminating hydrolock as a cause)
Is this the case?
What work did you do? I'm thinking of the possibility that you installed something wrong, preventing the engine from turning (like maybe the clutch)
Will it turn clockwise some? (although not normally recommended)
-
That is correct. And that’s why this is so frustrating, other than remove the starter for testing and cleaning, removed the alternator for cleaning, removed the air box assembly and everything below, cleaned, replaced some parts installed new injectors, air filter that’s about it.
Opened all the electrical connections and cleaned.
New oil and filter.
Greased the drive shaft as recommended while checking its condition.
When turned on I have the neutral light on but also the battery light, despite being a new battery…
-
"... cleaned, replaced some parts... "
Which parts? (and which parts under the air box do you mean)
Could it be the alternator?
With the clutch pulled in, can you turn the camshaft anti clockwise with a spanner? Can you turn it clockwise?
-
I replaced the 3 rubber parts connecting the airbox to throttle assy.
On the alternator I replaced an internal seal after removing the main shaft as well as the rubber bushings on the outer end.
Just tried turning camshaft with clutch pulled in an hardly budge, either directions. In fact my spacer slipped over not catching anymore.
But, for a split second there was a slight movement and a sound of gear, yet am in neutral and wheel spins…
-
Spacer slipped over...?
Maybe the camshaft will turn with the alternator removed, or the clutch basket, or some other thing you replaced.
-
Well I mean I pulled hard to rotate and the spanned just “rolled “ over .
Yes, at this point I am going to remove the alternator and see what happens…
-
When turned on I have the neutral light on but also the battery light, despite being a new battery…
The battery light will stay on until the engine operates the alternator to shut it off. It works that way with all Bricks and yours is no exception unless your alternator light never worked or your alternator wasn't charging in the first place.
-
Thank you everyone for all your help and advice!
In my haste to remove the alternator I just stripped the lower bolt’s head…and now it keeps turning into a slower progress…I’ll be back soon 😩🤬
-
Success! After finally removing the alternator I am able to spin the wheel in high gear! spark plugs removed.
So my engine is not seized:-))
I tested my starter motor and it spins but, the alternator am unsure how to test…I bet I screwed up something when I took it apart earlier on…
-
Battery light should be lit until the bike starts running.
-
"~ but for a split second there was a slight movement and the sound of a gear... "
Maybe you pushed a bit too hard. Make sure the timing marks are still good before going much further.
-
Thank you!
Forgive my stupid question, how do I keep the timing marks?
-
It's best described in a workshop manual (available here at motobrick) but the camshaft gears have marks which should be parallel and inline at top dead centre of compression stroke. The crankshaft position will also be shown.
The alternator test, as with the starter motor, when removed, you should be able to turn it with your fingers.
There's no stupid questions, it's better to ask if not sure.
-
Super, I really appreciate:-)
Thank you.
I will resume tomorrow.
-
So upon removing the alternator I hooked up the battery to the lead on bike and the engine turned! What a relief:-)
Now I need to fix the alternator or replace it.
Thanx again for all your support, really appreciate 👏
-
Can you turn the alternator with your hand?
-
Yes it does, easily
-
The bike was mostly taken apart by previous owner and then left for 3-4 years. Hard to know what he did…
Although he did say the bike ran but poorly and he suggested possibly on only 2 cylinders. The injectors were all rusty and I have replaced them and cleaned everything.
But now that engine turns I feel better about it.
The alternator is my next project…how to fix it…
-
I had a problem once where I replaced the 30W K75 alternator with a 50W K1100 one. Unknown to me, someone had inserted a washer below the drive cup. Off the bike, both engine and alternator spun freely. When mated, the alternator pushed on the vane and bound the engine. After a very short run, a bearing blew in the intermediate housing and I have an expensive teardown to repair the damage. Maybe the same is happening to you.
This is a link to the discussion thread: https://www.k100-forum.com/t2332-k100rt-intermediate-gear-repair-thread
-
So now that I have removed the alternator, the part where the head of the alternator fits, is that something that I should be able to spin by hand? Or is it not doable?
Trying to figure out if the alternator is the guilty party.
Thank you!
-
The drive dog cannot be turned by hand because it is linked to the crankshaft. It should spin when the engine turns.
Does the engine turn over when the starter runs with the alternator off the engine? If it does, you have done something to the alternator when you "serviced" it. That is where your problem is.
-
Yes, the engine turns. I was afraid of that but it does look like I caused the alternator to malfunction.
I will restart its overall, again.
Thank you!
-
So, to clearly state the problem.
The engine cranks without the alternator, and the alternator turns freely when it is off the engine, but nothing moves when the alternator is installed on the engine.
Is that correct?
-
Yes, that is correct
-
The problem is in how you put the drive clutch on the alternator or how you installed the alternator on the engine. See RBM's post #41 above.
-
Can you see a circular mark at the front of the intermediate housing, pointing to the possibility that the rubber absorber housing thingo was compressed against it while the mounting bolts were tightened? You could measure the clearance required. Maybe you put the spring washer on the wrong side of the absorber housing, or something like that.
-
Here’s a pic, I don’t see any marks shut that is an interesting point you bring.
Thank you!
-
Dunno if that's possible, just a guess. You could measure the clearance required, or spose if you used three washers for the mounting bolts to bring the alternator back a bit, if the engine then turns you're on the right track.
-
Excellent, that will be my next step tomorrow!
Thank you 👍
-
try the following:
1. attach the alternator to the intermediate housing using the mounting bolts
2. tighten them only finger tight so that the alternator is still free to move
3. try to spin the engine using the starter. Does it spin freely?
4. apply tightening torque to the alternator mounting bolts.
5. try to spin the engine using the starter. Does it spin freely?
If it spins freely in step 3 but not 5, there is a problem with the cup on the alternator. Investigate the problem. What I did was to measure the distance from the mounting face of the intermediate housing to the base of the drive dog (M1). I also measured the distance from the face of the mounting tab on the alternator to the top of the cup (M2). M2 has to be less than M1.
-
FYI: As you probably noticed when you first pulled the alternator, the threads on the three alternator mounting bolts can build up corrosion and be very tough to break free. Whenever I install a K alternator it is one of the few places where I use anti-seize in case I ever need to pull the alternator in the future.
(Peg plate mounting bolts too.)
-
I've just read the link from rbm so I recon you should ignore my last guess.
Rbm do I understand it right that in your case the cup pressed on the dog which pressed on the bearing in the intermediate housing?
-
A little delay in my testing the alternator in place with spacers…
Since I had tested starting the bike and heard the engine turned I wanted to listen to it again for a few seconds before mounting the alternator. And all that happened was a bit of smoke rising from where the stater switch is located and nothing.
I checked the switch and it looks fine so moving on to some other culprit…
-
And all that happened was a bit of smoke rising from where the stater switch is located and nothing.
I checked the switch and it looks fine so moving on to some other culprit…
Are you indicating that the engine now spins with the alternator mounted? If not, what is the situation?
-
No, not yet. I just tried starting the bike without it fist, as I did successfully the day before but instead something went wrong, a small puff of smoke, no start.
So checked the starter relay, and it looks good so moving on to next culprit.
Once I figure it out I will mount the alternator and test start.
-
I checked the switch and it looks fine so moving on to some other culprit…
The educated use of an electronic multimeter will help indicate whether that switch is "fine;" its looks don't matter, unless the wire is in flames or charred. :laughing4-giggles: Is there electrical current passing through the switch to the starter?
-
Thank you. No O don’t have a multimeter and will try and borrow one this week to check.
Thanx again!
-
I don't have the time to go back through all the posts to check, but have you serviced your starter motor? They usually need cleaning and possibly new brushes after 30 years.
-
Yes, it runs nicely now:-)
-
. . . have you serviced your starter motor?
Yes, it runs nicely now:-)
Does that mean you disassembled it, cleaned it, reassembled it then bench-tested it?
Before we trek into the weeds, did you resume steps 3, 4 and 5 in Post #55 after the smoke distracted you?
-
Yes, I did go through all the steps and all was fine.
Which is why now I was going to remount the alternator using a set of washers to see if that makes a difference. But I need to find the source of the smoke which happened before remounting the alternator…
Always something:-)
-
Sorry about long delay, working gets in way.
So the last time I test started it worked fine until one day some smoke came up from what I thought was the electro c box area. Turns out it was the starter motor. I had taken it apart and cleaned but failed to isolate properly the positive lead. So, ordered rebuilt kit and now it cranks again!
Thank you everyone for all your suggestions and advice!
Soon, I will install the fuel tank and go a “full start”
Am sure I’ll be back again soon:-)