Post by: bornfrustrated on October 17, 2021, 05:07:34 PM
It's shifted weird sometimes since I bought it 5 years ago. Sometimes it won't go in gear all the way or it'll come out of gear but this could be because of user error. I'm at 47k miles and spline lube was done around 30k. It's always had this clacking with the clutch out in neutral too. I haven't taken anything apart yet.
My question is does this sound like an internal transmission problem, Input shaft, or a clutch problem?
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 17, 2021, 06:35:24 PM
Post by: daveson on October 17, 2021, 07:01:29 PM
Post by: Laitch on October 17, 2021, 07:34:34 PM
. . . I was coming home from some camping. I lost power and heard a grinding/squealing noise while I pulled over.By "losing power" do you mean the engine lost power, or the engine revs stayed the same but forward momentum slowed?
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 18, 2021, 11:09:23 AM
Is there any free play in the shift lever? A lot of free play indicates a loose grub screw in the transmission. It can cause a lot of problems with the insides of the transmission.
I adjusted clutch Freeplay earlier this year to be in normal spec. Engagement is later than i like but I've found that to be true for literally everything manual I've owned.
If it squeals in neutral with the lever in, that might point to the clutch. Maybe the pressure plate or bearing.
This is what I was thinking. I don't know what the condition of the input shaft splines are since I didn't have them lubed but I have paperwork from the p/o.
By "losing power" do you mean the engine lost power, or the engine revs stayed the same but forward momentum slowed?
Engine stayed running, but there was no power to the wheel. Also when I start it, there are no abnormal sounds until I pull the clutch in or shift into first. I did not try to move it in gear or shift into second after pulling over.
Also, it rolls fine in neutral. I was able to roll it into the van to get it home.
Thanks everyone. I very much appreciate the brainstorming before taking it all apart.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 18, 2021, 12:28:23 PM
Post by: Laitch on October 18, 2021, 01:37:30 PM
Engagement is later than i like but I've found that to be true for literally everything manual I've owned.Late clutch engagement that can't be improved by adjustment could mean the clutch disc is worn out. These discs are usually durable, functioning for 80K-100K miles or more depending on the riding styles of the users.
Engine stayed running, but there was no power to the wheel. Also when I start it, there are no abnormal sounds until I pull the clutch in or shift into first.
Difficulty downshifting can indicate lack of spline lube. Chronic lack of transmission input shaft spline lube contributes to wear of the clutch hub splines and/or transmission input shaft splines. When the teeth of a driveline splined shaft or socket are completely worn, power to the rear drive stops and is often accompanied by a grinding noise when in gear.
A YouTube video of the noise as shifting is accomplished while the moto is on the center stand might help us identify it. At the minimum, disassembly to inspect the rear drive and driveshaft splines, followed by removal of the transmission to inspect the clutch disc thickness, clutch hub splines and transmission input shaft splines is what I would undertake, based on your description.
Does the noise sound like this and are the circumstances that produce the noise the same?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Pdees1ON8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Pdees1ON8)
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 18, 2021, 06:33:36 PM
Does the noise sound like this and are the circumstances that produce the noise the same?
That's pretty close to what it sounds like and under the same conditions. Great video by the way for what I was describing. I guess I'll pull the rear shaft and the transmission this weekend to see what those splines look like. Clutch spline lube I've read is good for about 40k? At least that's what I've heard for '90+ bricks.
I was referring to free play in the gear shift lever.
No freeplay in the gear shift lever. Also, downshifting isn't usually an issue unless I've stopped and I'm going into first. I've usually chalked this up to manual transmission stuff just being slightly out of alignment and a quick/short engage/disengage of the clutch lever remedies any difficulty.
Also I don't know if this is part of it or a separate issue, but upshifting is where I usually saw more difficulty. Sometimes it won't go all the way in gear and I need to "re-upshift" for the gear to engage.
Post by: Laitch on October 18, 2021, 08:31:37 PM
. . . upshifting is where I usually saw more difficulty. Sometimes it won't go all the way in gear and I need to "re-upshift" for the gear to engage.Your description squares with a worn out clutch disc and/or worn clutch cable. It depends partially on whether the moto has been regularly given a competent by-the-BMW-book clutch adjustment. Inspecting the clutch pack would be helpful, after you locate the source of the screaming first.
A transmission input shaft spline lube can be good for 40K miles—perhaps longer—if was done on a cleaned splines with the appropriate paste and technique.
Keep us posted.
Post by: daveson on October 18, 2021, 09:07:40 PM
If engagement is too late on everything manual you've owned, that sounds like a symptom of being born frustrated. Bike riding could be one of the cures.
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 23, 2021, 08:19:01 PM
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 23, 2021, 08:28:13 PM
Clutch had about 14k miles on it. Looks like when they changed the clutch they didn't lube the input shaft. The clutch splines are smoother than a koalas brain. The input shaft is super chewed up.
IMG_20211023_164922.jpg (28.91 kB . 259x576 - viewed 843 times)So I'm looking at a clutch kit and a used transmission. My next question though. Is there anyone that makes a better input shaft that can be swapped in? Spending the money on a new transmission with an input shaft that will eventually do the same thing seems sillier than spending the same amount of money on a beefier shaft.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on October 23, 2021, 09:27:27 PM
There should be two dowels in the intermediate section that align the transmission to the engine, one on either side of the housing. Do you have them on your bike?
As far as the input splines on the transmission, you shouldn't need anything special to get a couple hundred thousand miles out of them. There are lots of bikes out there with well over 100k on them that have good splines. Just keep them lubed with a good spline lube.
Post by: Laitch on October 23, 2021, 10:50:17 PM
Is there anyone that makes a better input shaft that can be swapped in?Not to my knowledge. Longevity is dependent upon timely maintenance with correct paste and application technique, and the owner's riding style.
The universal joint splines and transmission output shaft splines don't wear because they are clipped together and not subject to fretting—wear caused by the sliding of the splines against each other within sockets or hubs. Measure the clutch disc with a micrometer at a few points around its surface and tell us what you get.
Attached is the bulletin about alignment dowels to which Gryphon refers.
Post by: frankenduck on October 23, 2021, 11:29:56 PM
You do not need to replace the whole clutch assembly, just the clutch plate.
Hard to tell from your pic how worn or not worn the rear drive shaft splines are. Wipe off the lube and look for "the mountain effect" to assess the condition of those splines. The drive shaft splines are softer than the final drive input splines and wear faster.
More about splines here:
http://www.kbikeparts.com/classickbikes.com/ckb.tech/0.ckb.tech.files/splientology/Splientology.pdf
Post by: Laitch on October 24, 2021, 12:47:50 AM
Wipe off the lube and look for "the mountain effect" to assess the condition of those splines.That's also known a "sawtooth profile". Instead of the splines having straight sides and flattened tops, one side gets hooked like a saw tooth and the tips start becoming pointed, like in the attached photo. Finally, the spline tops break off, forward power ends, and the howling begins. 177381
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 24, 2021, 12:12:48 PM
Wow! that's the worst looking clutch I've ever seen. That damage is pretty alarming for only 14,000 miles. The input shaft wear is also unusual. I suspect that there is something about the alignment of the engine to the transmission that is encouraging the wear. I think there was a service bulletin about alignment that may shed some light on your problem, maybe someone has a link to it.
There should be two dowels in the intermediate section that align the transmission to the engine, one on either side of the housing. Do you have them on your bike?
I've never done a bike clutch, but yeah any car clutches I've done have never looked that bad. Those alignment dowels between the gearbox and bell housing are there. I saw something about them while I was trying to figure out what happened and I knew to look for them. I didn't remove the bell housing though so it's not confirmed that the dowels are in there between the engine and bell housing. I'll look next time I get the chance to do more work.
Were you getting false neutrals downshifting, like 4>3 or 3>2 when coming into turns? This is a common symptom of dry splines and if left unaddressed will strip the clutch splines eventually.
I was getting false neutrals, but it wasn't dependent on turns. I got them more often with upshifting.
Wipe off the lube and look for "the mountain effect" to assess the condition of those splines.
I did wipe off the lube on the output, drive shaft and rear. I didn't get any pictures of them cleaned off, but they all looked good.
The input shaft was definitely dry. I know it hadn't been apart since the clutch was done by the previous owner. Does the input shaft seem particularly worn for 47k?
Post by: Laitch on October 24, 2021, 01:36:42 PM
I know it hadn't been apart since the clutch was done by the previous owner. Does the input shaft seem particularly worn for 47k?Post a photo with the same resolution and profile as the one in Post #15 and we'll have a better idea.
I believe there's a misconception about the way molybdenum/graphite spline lubes work. Only a light covering is used because the graphite or molybdenum whithin the paste bonds to metal surfaces by heat and pressure of operation; that bonding provides lubrication and protection. That's also why the surface of the splines should be clean and dry. The moly or graphite in the paste won't bond to soiled surfaces. These pastes don't work like typical grease. BMW gives the effect of the lube a typical lifespan of 40K miles on later model Bricks.
Measure the clutch plate thickness. I'm not yet convinced the clutch plate has only 14K miles on it. Was the clutch hub extending forward or rearward when it was in place in the clutch pack? Would you post a side profile of the pushrod?
Post by: frankenduck on October 25, 2021, 10:11:27 AM
Was the clutch hub extending forward or rearward when it was in place in the clutch pack?
You can see in the first picture of Reply #11 that the clutch plate is installed in the correct orientation.
ETA: And if it were installed backwards then the clutch would not work properly (if at all) because the clutch diaphragm spring would have to be compressed pretty far just to get the clutch assembly installed.
Post by: Laitch on October 25, 2021, 11:01:50 AM
You can see in the first picture of Reply #11 . . .If I could see that, I wouldn't have made my comment. I couldn't discern what you see but regardless, according to KC's description the clutch hasn't been working properly.
And if it were installed backwards then the clutch would not work properly (if at all) because the clutch diaphragm spring would have to be compressed pretty far just to get the clutch assembly installed.
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 25, 2021, 11:24:45 AM
Measure the clutch plate thickness. I'm not yet convinced the clutch plate has only 14K miles on it. Was the clutch hub extending forward or rearward when it was in place in the clutch pack? Would you post a side profile of the pushrod?
The clutch hub extended rearward. The writing is on the transmission side. There's not really any indication it was put in backwards and it never slipped on me. I'll get a thickness measurement as soon as I can, and the video below Shows the cable operation with quite some throw.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjKhkI5jKmTtie9ySXV5JfPpdZmqLg
This is the next best picture I have of the input shaft though
Other pictures and the measurements of the friction disc will need to wait since it's currently at my father's place.
Post by: bornfrustrated on October 25, 2021, 11:55:20 AM
Measure the clutch plate thickness. I'm not yet convinced the clutch plate has only 14K miles on it. Was the clutch hub extending forward or rearward when it was in place in the clutch pack? Would you post a side profile of the pushrod?
The clutch hub extended rearward. The writing is on the transmission side. There's not really any indication it was put in backwards and it never slipped on me. I'll get a thickness measurement as soon as I can, and the video below Shows the cable operation with quite some throw.
https://1drv.ms/v/s!AjKhkI5jKmTtie9ySXV5JfPpdZmqLg
This is the next best picture I have of the input shaft though
Other pictures and the measurements of the friction disc will need to wait since it's currently at my father's place.
Post by: bornfrustrated on November 15, 2021, 11:08:48 AM
Measure the clutch plate thickness. I'm not yet convinced the clutch plate has only 14K miles on it. Was the clutch hub extending forward or rearward when it was in place in the clutch pack? Would you post a side profile of the pushrod?
Friction disc thickness is .215"
I have a few pictures of the pressure plate and flywheel. Would it be worth getting a whole clutch kit based on these or just the friction disc?
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Post by: Laitch on November 15, 2021, 11:39:58 AM
Friction disc thickness is .215"That's appropriate for 14K miles. If there are no pits or grooves in the pressure plate or clutch cover, what are the conditions of the driveshaft socket splines and the rear drive pinion gear shaft splines that engage with each other? 14K is much too soon for damage to them but take a look.
Post by: bornfrustrated on November 15, 2021, 09:55:15 PM
If there are no pits or grooves in the pressure plate or clutch cover, what are the conditions of the driveshaft socket splines and the rear drive pinion gear shaft splines that engage with each other?
Driveshaft and rear pinion splines look good.
There doesn't look too be any pitting or grooves. Aside from what looks like where they were machined. What about the spacer ring or clutch nut I see with kits? Should they be replaced while I'm in there?
And should I pick up a second set of those locating pins for mating the transmission? It has two already but would there be a benefit for adding another set?
Post by: Laitch on November 15, 2021, 11:33:54 PM
And should I pick up a second set of those locating pins for mating the transmission? It has two already but would there be a benefit for adding another set?There will be no benefit installing a second set of dowels for that pupose. It would be good to know if the intermediate housing-to-engine dowels are installed. BMW recommends replacing the clutch nut, the compression ring, the output shaft o-ring, the clutch pack screws and their washers when reassembling the clutch. Some members here do; some don't.
I suggest you use a clutch alignment tool during re-installation of the clutch pack, given that the clutch plate hub splines were damaged. Use this video for guidance; alignment instructions start at 4:13.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RybnCX6PlIE)
Post by: frankenduck on November 16, 2021, 05:56:45 AM
BMW recommends replacing the clutch nut, the compression ring, the output shaft o-ring, the clutch pack screws and their washers when reassembling the clutch.
Where does BMW recommend this? Only a new O-ring is mentioned in the clutch chapter of the service manual.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on November 16, 2021, 09:04:25 AM
Where does BMW recommend this? Only a new O-ring is mentioned in the clutch chapter of the service manual.
I haven't noticed if there is mention of it in the factory service manual, but I seem to recall replacement is mentioned in the Clymer manual. I do know there are notes in MaxBMW's official parts fiche that recommend replacing the parts Laitch mentions. Maybe it's just a way to sell extra parts for a maintenance job.
I can report that I have rebuilt the clutch on a couple bikes without replacing the clutch nut and bolts and had no ill effects. However, I have a handful of clutch o-rings and always replace it when I'm in there. I think that the clutch basket bolts are stretch bolts and can't be restretched or something like that. I just put a little BLUE Loctite on them when I put them back together to guarantee that they won't loosen up.
Post by: Laitch on November 16, 2021, 10:50:03 AM
Where does BMW recommend this? Only a new O-ring is mentioned in the clutch chapter of the service manual.If we can agree that authorized BMW dealerships that sell BMW motorcycles and service accurately represent BMW's intentions, then these recommendations can be found in BMW's parts fiches, specifically in this case, MaxBMW's parts fiche.
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-161121104057.png)
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-161121103939.png)
Post by: frankenduck on November 16, 2021, 12:56:58 PM
If we can agree that authorized BMW dealerships that sell BMW motorcycles and service accurately represent BMW's intentions, then these recommendations can be found in BMW's parts fiches, specifically in this case, MaxBMW's parts fiche.
They probably got that from the Clymer manual. :laughing4-giggles:
Those notes are added by MAX(they also add comments for other parts) and are not part of the BMW fiche.
The Haynes manual refers to a "new" clutch nut but makes no mention of new for the compression ring or the other six nuts/washers.
In looking at the BMW K1100 manual it DOES indicate a new O-ring is used (obvious) and that the clutch nut should be "renewed" but not any other clutch parts.
I was just curious if anyone had ever seen anything about this from Der Fatherland, such as in a manual or technical service bulletin.
My shade-tree mechanic opinion: (I studied materials science when getting my civil engineering degree so I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to metals.)
1 - Replacing the O-ring is a no-brainer. I use Viton O-rings since they last longer than rubber.
2 - Probably a good idea to replace the clutch nut since the K1100 manual does call that out. (I've re-used them many times without issue however.)
3- Compression ring: Meh, probably OK to re-use it.
4 - All the six outer bolts do is hold the clutch pressure plates together so I can't see any good reason why those would need to be replaced.
5 - Replacing the external lock washers for those six bolts might make sense but it's probably not the end of the world if you do re-use those. I've re-used them without issue.
Finally, it's just a motorcycle, not the space shuttle where material properties and tolerances make a "real" difference.
Post by: Laitch on November 16, 2021, 02:26:48 PM
Those notes are added by MAX(they also add comments for other parts) and are not part of the BMW fiche.The notes in Max's fiche could possibly be the result of experience working on thousands of motorcycles in a well-lighted building rather than several under a shade tree; however, they also could be bald-face attempts to expand their wealth through the sale of costly fasteners and other parts. Regardless, perfection is illusive everywhere. 177381
My shade-tree mechanic opinion:(I studied materials science when getting my civil engineering degree so I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to metals.)
Finally, it's just a motorcycle, not the space shuttle where material properties and tolerances make a "real" difference.
Secondly, nobody here is claiming any idiocy that may have been evinced in this thread is complete. :laughing4-giggles:
Finally, a motorcycle is certainly not the space shuttle, but the rider of an aging motorcycle is likely exposed to a much higher chance of being maimed or dying as a result of mechanical failure than a rocket-riding space shuttle astronaut partly because rocket scientists tend to be particular about the quality and condition of parts in a rocket's assembly while the Brick's rider might be conserving money by assembling with used parts of unknown condition, or parts of uncertain quality.
Risk-taking is part of riding's allure. 112350
Post by: frankenduck on November 16, 2021, 03:33:25 PM
Post by: Laitch on November 16, 2021, 05:21:03 PM
I'm much more afraid of deer than anything else when I ride. I never worry about what nuts and bolts I used to put the clutch together.That's what they all say. :laughing4-giggles:
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on November 16, 2021, 07:49:08 PM
The screws that hold the housing together are not torqued to extremes and do not operate under a lot of tension, so my only concern would be loosening. Fortunately, that can be prevented by proper torque and a drop of blue Loctite along with the lock washer. Like I mentioned above, the o-ring is cheap and prevents more expensive problems, so if I'm in there I will change it. I have several in my tool box so there is no barrier to getting it done.
Post by: bornfrustrated on November 19, 2021, 01:24:26 PM
And moly paste too. Honda moly 60 is common?
Post by: Laitch on November 19, 2021, 03:19:33 PM
Post by: bornfrustrated on November 22, 2021, 06:18:05 PM
Post by: Martin on November 25, 2021, 12:56:15 AM
Regards Martin.
Post by: Scott_ on November 25, 2021, 07:56:28 AM
Honda 60 has been replaced by Honda M77. A Honda should be able to order it in for you.I'd be cautious of the M77, as it is not up to the the same compound quality(composition) as the M60....
Regards Martin.
If you do a google search for the Honda Moly 60 you should come up with some older threads(from 2006...) discussing this very issue.
They discussed the chemical makeup of the two and the consensus of the experienced mechanics and riders is that the M77 is no better than what you buy from BMW.
The 77 has a lower melting temperature than the 60 and less molly in it. Even the Honda service techs don't use it for the same service procedures anymore.(used less often).
The most common suggested replacement was the GD525, however Guard Dog is no longer in business anymore either.... sad.
Here's one discussion:
https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?78215-ATTENTION!!!-All-K-bikes-HONDA-MOLY-60-DISCONTINUED
YMMV, do your own research, after all, this is the internet..... and we all know what that means.
Post by: frankenduck on November 25, 2021, 09:56:48 AM
https://www.beemershop.com/product/ts-60-spline-lube.html
Post by: bornfrustrated on December 29, 2021, 09:50:24 PM
Post by: Laitch on December 30, 2021, 12:27:22 AM
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-301221000753.jpeg)
Sometimes there's a mark positioned like this clutch cover mark.
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-301221000925.jpeg)
Sometime the mark is positioned like this pressure plate mark.
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-301221001033.jpeg)
Sometimes there are no marks at all or there are multiple marks.
Before I disassembled my moto's clutch pack for inspection, I dabbed WiteOut on the edges of the cover, the pressure plate and the housing, all in alignment and reassembled them aligned. There might be no reference marks at all on yours or what might be reference marks on some of them. If so, I wouldn't worry about it because several credible owners here have indicated they just bolted up the assembly without regard to the presence or absence of marks and had no problems; however, I suggest you use a clutch alignment tool on reassembly and be certain the alignment dowels are still installed on the intermediate housing before mounting the transmission.
Post by: daveson on December 30, 2021, 04:16:28 AM
Sometimes they look like this:
(this one's from a k100)
Post by: bornfrustrated on January 18, 2022, 12:05:46 PM
I do however have a leftover spring that i can't remember where it came from. If anyone can identify where it goes it's been greatly appreciated.
Post by: Laitch on January 18, 2022, 12:16:18 PM
I do however have a leftover spring that i can't remember where it came from. IAre there two springs on your center stand and one spring as a return on your rear brake piston?
Post by: frankenduck on January 18, 2022, 12:34:40 PM
I do however have a leftover spring that i can't remember where it came from. If anyone can identify where it goes it's been greatly appreciated.
Rear brake pedal return spring. (Click on the image below to enlarge it.)
(https://i.imgur.com/1c1YZYr.jpg)
Post by: bornfrustrated on January 18, 2022, 09:04:40 PM