Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 25, 2019, 02:38:53 PM
As I'm disassembling my FD from the drive shaft housing, I encounter something that I think is anti-seize on the bolts that hold the two together: it's white in color:
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-250819143121-2396323.jpeg)
I don't think it's locktite but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. The only anti-seize I have is blue in color. So my question is, when I reassemble the works, is it OK to use this on the bolt?
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-250819143122-23991955.jpeg)
Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but I can't find the answer to what I'm looking for my usual bible (in here):
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-210719101617-23261280.jpeg)
Post by: johnny on August 25, 2019, 04:12:07 PM
oe used nothing or a green or a blue thread locker... itts opposite of antisieze... ittsa thread locker... some bolts like the rear rotar bolts used a perminate thread locker...
and of course they used a green paint to show proper twerk during assembly...
licktite blue 242 or locktight blue 243 is prefered...
though enough to lock with you being tough enough to unlock...
download.jpeg (24.28 kB . 357x357 - viewed 789 times)who knows what has been applied by previous owners... that white stuff could be canadican bacon grease...
j o
Post by: stokester on August 25, 2019, 04:24:04 PM
I trust this may be a suitable place to post this question, having searched in vain for an answer although I might not be using the best keywords.I've never used thread locker on these bolts and am not sure it is required but as long as you use the medium (blue) it can't hurt. DO NOT use red as it will require heat to loosen.
As I'm disassembling my FD from the drive shaft housing, I encounter something that I think is anti-seize on the bolts that hold the two together: it's white in color:
I don't think it's anti-seize but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. The only anti-seize I have is blue in color. So my question is, when I reassemble the works, is it OK to use this on the bolt?
Maybe I haven't looked hard enough but I can't find the answer to what I'm looking for my usual bible (in here):
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 25, 2019, 04:46:40 PM
Funny thing, as I disassembled the works, the white locktite was only on two of the four bolts. They were quite tight!
Post by: Martin on August 25, 2019, 05:09:04 PM
Regards Martin.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 25, 2019, 05:13:07 PM
Post by: Martin on August 25, 2019, 05:16:59 PM
Regards Martin.
Post by: stokester on August 25, 2019, 05:17:46 PM
It felt actually dry, almost powdery.I may have been some corrosion in the threads. Be sure to wire-brush them clean.
Reminder... I've never seen nor been told that a thread locker is required on these bolts but be sure to tighten them to the required torque as best you can.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 25, 2019, 05:26:50 PM
Post by: johnny on August 25, 2019, 05:40:58 PM
6539-250819171851-24011197.jpeg (23.96 kB . 432x576 - viewed 832 times) 6539-250819171854-24041949.jpeg (44.39 kB . 768x576 - viewed 823 times)lighting is badd... caints sees in there in your photo... photoging splines is an art...
these splines are proper... this is what it should look like...
Screenshot_20190825-163815.jpg (31.57 kB . 533x576 - viewed 830 times)j o
Post by: stokester on August 25, 2019, 05:53:05 PM
It is very difficult to get a twerk wrench on these bolts! I'm going to go with "tight"."tight" is very inaccurate - is it V-twin tight? If so, then it is probably too much.
Use a torque wrench on the ones you can access and gauge the inaccessible from those. 40Nm/29.5pound/feet is not a lot.
I've found over the years that most times fasteners are waaaaay overtightened and frequently never cause a problem. Strip out one and you'll regret not keeping the proper torque in mind.
Yes, I was the guy in the shop ALWAYS using a torque wrench if possible but never stripping out a fastener nor fixing a come-back where a bolt worked its way loose.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 25, 2019, 10:35:47 PM
A smaller torque wrench for one, and a socket extension u-joint.
Also a motorcycle lift.
By the way, is it normal to take six hours to do a spline lube? :johnny
Post by: Chaos on August 25, 2019, 11:12:39 PM
By the way, is it normal to take six hours to do a spline lube? :johnny
Depends how many beer runs you had to make
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 26, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
Am I about to get stranded?
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-260819184452-2416577.jpeg)
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-260819184444-24132325.jpeg)
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 26, 2019, 07:54:24 PM
(https://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-260819184508-24261180.jpeg)
I think my problem is the female spline on the FD.
Post by: billday on August 26, 2019, 08:20:00 PM
A smaller torque wrench for one, and a socket extension u-joint.
I bought a 1/4" drive torque wrench made for bicycle mechanics. Didn't cost much and it's very handy in tight spaces and with smaller heads that need accurate but low twerque.
Your splines . . . where are they? Time for a new drive shaft.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 26, 2019, 09:00:49 PM
This is the best photo I could get.
I'll try harder next time. . . .
And I'm going to buy a small torque wrench in addition to all of the other tools I need.
I used my big one on one of the FD bolts and approximated for the others that were harder to reach.
Post by: mw074 on August 26, 2019, 09:28:18 PM
Post by: Past-my-Prime on August 26, 2019, 10:42:21 PM
Those splines look like junk to me.
Really? Dammit! Also, I don't know why sometimes the photo disappears.
But really: Dammit. . . . . new driveshaft search begins.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-260819184452-2416577.jpeg)
Post by: volador on September 03, 2019, 01:08:08 AM
I wept because I had no splines until I... really have no splines Dammit!
Post by: natalena on September 03, 2019, 07:45:44 AM
Wow! That's the spline equivalent of a "Skeeball." Good luck on the drive search. I got one in great shape and inexpensive perusing fleaBay.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/2/6539-260819184452-2416577.jpeg)
Post by: Laitch on September 03, 2019, 08:04:46 AM
Really? Dammit! Dammit. . . . . new driveshaft search begins.You could have been 250km into your last trip and had that driveshaft scream at you as it failed and left you stalled along the roadside. There would have been no forward movement except by carrier, tow rope or muscle. Dammit wouldn't have been the half of it; Rocinante would have lived up—or down—to her name.
Count yourself lucky.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 09, 2019, 07:37:41 PM
Let's just call that photo "why to lube your splines" with a happy ending. I'm sending the FD to Hansens and going with a new DS and will make lubing my new religion.
Next up. . . my long neglected valves!
Post by: stokester on September 09, 2019, 08:33:27 PM
<CUT>If you are referring to adjustments there are many threads here addressing that process. Keep in mind that Ken Lively makes the tools and Yamaha as well as Kawasaki have shims that are the same size that may be available locally.
Next up. . . my long neglected valves!
Post by: volador on September 10, 2019, 01:33:37 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFkPnLVkxWQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUxkv08XwH0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4veyx2QHgnw
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 10, 2019, 07:51:20 AM
Kopr Kote to failed drive splines (not quite failed, but nearly so) to well let's see what long ignored valves look like.
The next moan of bitterness will be when I have to take the back half of the drive train off to replace the clutch. "Easy" say the old hands at wrenching!
On the bright side, I've changed the engine oil regularly!
Post by: Laitch on September 10, 2019, 07:58:50 AM
On the bright side, I've changed the engine oil regularly!If your oil didn't come from a tin can, be careful.
You won't be able to see your valves; they're on the other side of the head. You can visualize them though, and send them positive vibrations. Send up your shim calculations here for review, but you might not need any if you accept the idea that a clearance measuring in spec is a clearance that is in spec.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 10, 2019, 08:21:55 PM
Need to send in for refurbishing the complete rear end the cost is $759.20 to $1,374.93 (depending on how bad the bearings and gears are)
Drive Shaft: $336.76.
.
.
PLUS Postage!!
It looks, from reading various threads on this forum, that disassembly of the FD isn't THAT bad. (take it off, bake it at 350 until done, remove various pieces, take lots of photographs, etc).
Then you just send in the pinion which they can redo for $240 (plus driveshaft of course for a bit more: $374.18)
That can reduce labor costs at Hansen's by a fair amount but increases my labor possibly by more. And postage / insurance is less.
I have a lot of researching to do before I get to that point.
While it's gone would be the optimal time to replace my clutch.
I wonder how my wife would like me parking the Beemer in the living room for a few weeks? That's one way to get her to agree that we need a heated garage / workshop!
Post by: natalena on September 11, 2019, 06:58:23 AM
FWIW, rigged up a double Buddy heater to a 20lb tank for the garage, works splendid.
Good luck
Post by: johnny on September 11, 2019, 07:24:41 AM
if i was in this kinda shape id call lior and ask him if he would rebuild my final drive complete... if so id ask him how much and how long...
then id hire him to do the work and be done with that part of the whack...
https://liorsmotoride.godaddysites.com/
j o
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 07, 2021, 07:26:33 PM
Thought I'd let y'all know that.
And I've gotten replacement FD and drive shaft if anyone is interested!
Post by: frankenduck on September 09, 2021, 01:50:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/CytQNJW.jpg)
Post by: Laitch on September 09, 2021, 04:28:18 PM
The BMW shop manual makes no mention of using anything on those 4 swing arm to final drive bolts, anti-seize or thread-locker.The BMW shop manual rarely mentions using anti-seize on any bolt or screw. Chris Harris recommends using it on many bolts and screws he encounters in his video. It isn't going to hurt anything if it's applied sparingly but torque should be reduced by 10%–15% when applied to fasteners with lubricated threads.
I've read posts where those rear drive bolts have been seized so tightly their attempted removal produced hysteria and high blood pressure effects in people dealing with them. A thin application on the bolt head face contacting the part when it was installed might have remedied the removal difficulty, especially if the motos were ridden on salt-covered roads or in areas near bodies of salt water. Applying heat, Liquid Wrench, patience and persistence would also have done the trick.
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 09, 2021, 09:49:52 PM
Post by: Laitch on September 10, 2021, 12:12:18 AM
Does the shop manual mention moly paste for the splines?Within the BMW Repair Manual K75-K100LT All 2V Models here at Motobrick in the Technical Directory's Service Manual section, there are a few references to Optimoly (also known as Optimol) PL (https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/0BEE4E70B36D976780257796003017F9/$File/OPTIMOL%20PASTE%20PL.pdf), a lubricating paste containing molybdenum. One such reference is in Chapter 33, p. 24.0. Optimoly PL is named as an alternative to Staburags NBU 30 PTM. Does that square with your manual, PmP?
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/3/1601-100921002036.png)
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 11, 2021, 09:51:52 AM
Nothing about the spline surfaces. I guess the book was written before spline failures became a thing?
Post by: frankenduck on September 11, 2021, 10:06:24 AM
Does the shop manual mention moly paste for the splines? I looked (at the original BMW manual, in German, about 600 pages, which came with my bike) and couldn't find it.
Yes, look two posts above. The BMW manual says to coat the FD input splines with Staburags or Optimoly.
Spline lubes are also included in the K bike maintenance schedule.
(https://i.imgur.com/xATsgWk.jpg)
Post by: Laitch on September 11, 2021, 10:28:20 AM
I have that page, and it refers to installation of the gaiter only.My post also indicates that instruction is just one among others—including driveline splines as frankenduck indicates. Slow your speed-reading, PmP. :laughing4-giggles: Spline maintenance has always been a thing.
Post by: frankenduck on September 11, 2021, 10:29:37 AM
The BMW shop manual rarely mentions using anti-seize on any bolt or screw. Chris Harris recommends using it on many bolts and screws he encounters in his video. It isn't going to hurt anything if it's applied sparingly but torque should be reduced by 10%–15% when applied to fasteners with lubricated threads.
I've read posts where those rear drive bolts have been seized so tightly their attempted removal produced hysteria and high blood pressure effects in people dealing with them. A thin application on the bolt head face contacting the part when it was installed might have remedied the removal difficulty, especially if the motos were ridden on salt-covered roads or in areas near bodies of salt water. Applying heat, Liquid Wrench, patience and persistence would also have done the trick.
I've taken tons of Ks apart (including some real beaters) and never had an issue with removing those bolts. The only places I've seen the need for anti-seize are the peg plate bolts (especially on K1100s) and the three mounting bolts for the alternator.
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on September 11, 2021, 10:49:16 AM
The fact that PmP has white powder aluminum corrosion on his screws is witness to the nasty stuff that can be splashed on your bike riding in places where the snow flies. Even when there is no snow on the roads, the residual salt powder will get into stuff and wait for the eventual application of water to start doing it's thing.
Another thing, I noticed that Laitch posted a drawing of a Paralever. According to PmP's signature, he has a K75 which would be a Monolever and thus has no gaiter and a different assembly procedure.
Post by: frankenduck on September 11, 2021, 11:29:16 AM
Another thing, I noticed that Laitch posted a drawing of a Paralever. According to PmP's signature, he has a K75 which would be a Monolever and thus has no gaiter and a different assembly procedure.
Both 2V and 4V Ks have the exact same gaiter (part 33171454552) where the front of the swing arm meets the transmission.
(https://www.tills.de/images/product_images/original_images/Faltenbalg%20(33171454552).jpg)
Post by: Past-my-Prime on September 11, 2021, 01:28:43 PM
Both 2V and 4V Ks have the exact same gaiter (part 33171454552) where the front of the swing arm meets the transmission.
(https://www.tills.de/images/product_images/original_images/Faltenbalg%20(33171454552).jpg)
. . . which I can confirm as everything is in about a million pieces all over the place. Which gets me to the fact that I have a 22 mm and a 30 mm socket (and all the sizes below 22) but NO 27 mm socket! Which makes torquing the counter-bolt on the swing arm interesting.
My actual work has me sitting at a desk, proofing reports, talking on the phone, meeting with people, and doing very little that requires any manual dexterity so I appreciate these opportunities to disassemble and reassemble things.
My post also indicates that instruction is just one among others—including driveline splines as frankenduck indicates. Slow your speed-reading, PmP. :laughing4-giggles: Spline maintenance has always been a thing.
You are absolutely correct. I didn't bother (ever) to read that paragraph which I (wrongly) assumed just said to install the FD and torque specs. I have to concede that there is a lot of information about these bikes that unless you're looking for it, you don't find it. Henceforth, spline maintenance IS a thing for me as well.
On a more positive note, I have checked the valve clearances and although they were all out of spec, it wasn't by much and I moved the exhaust shims to the intake (which are now in spec) and ordered three more shims at 4.45 mm to replace the 4.50 mm ones that I moved up. Very satisfying job to do.
And on a more negative note, I'm seeing dripping from my recently installed water pump bearing/gasket. So drain everything again, remove pump, remove shaft, remove failed (wrecked, by me) components, reassemble taking great care to follow instructions, and see if I have more success.
My wife keeps coming to the garage to make sure I'm OK -- I think it's been about six days of working on the bike doing the above and I'm very glad I'm not paying my hourly rate or this bike would have cost me more than I'd pay to replace it :laughing4-giggles: :threadjacked
Post by: frankenduck on September 11, 2021, 03:04:27 PM
Which gets me to the fact that I have a 22 mm and a 30 mm socket (and all the sizes below 22) but NO 27 mm socket! Which makes torquing the counter-bolt on the swing arm interesting.
Torqueing the lock nut on the left swing arm pivot pin is not that critical. It's just a lock nut. The torque that MATTERS is on the left pivot pin because that determines how much lateral force is applied to the the swing arm bearings. After that left pivot pin is properly torqued (7.5 Nm - 66.4 in-lb) you can just hold it in place with a 6mm Allen wrench while you tighten the lock nut "pretty darn tight" with a large crescent wrench. That's what I do.
One of the many K bikes I've bought came with this modified socket for that task. (It's actually 1-1/16 but that's 26.9875 mm so it works fine on a 27mm nut.) I don't use it though since the exact torque on that lock nut doesn't really matter. That lock nut just needs to be tight enough to keep the pivot pin from turning.
(https://i.imgur.com/GLJY4zo.jpg)
Post by: The Mighty Gryphon on September 11, 2021, 03:29:05 PM