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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: Motorhobo on August 23, 2018, 11:15:37 AM
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There's a torque spec for spark plugs I can't find a thin 3/8 in drive socket that gets in there, so I've been using the socket that comes in the toolkit and tightening it by feel for the past 18 years. Not that I have a problem with that but...should be 17mm, no? Haven't been able to find a thin 17mm socket that I can use with a torque wrench. Any help?
And I know GIYF, done that. There are thin wall 17mm sockets but that's no guarantee they're thin enough to get around the plug. Looking for a tip from someone who has something that works.
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Craftsman or Harbor Freight 11/16 deep socket works fine, probably others. Thickness isn't an issue with any I've used.
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I have a deep socket Crescent with too much wall thickness and no metric one will go in...I'll try the 11/16 next time I have a plug out. Thanks...
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11/16" is the correct size, at least for Bosch X5DC's. My NAPA sockets work fine. 17mm would be too small, unless it was a fairly sloppy fit.
Andy
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put your oem spark plug wrench on your plug and a socket and torque wrench onto the spark plug wrench.
thats how i do it
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gearwrench brand deep sockets work well for this. available at many chain autoparts stores.
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put your oem spark plug wrench on your plug and a socket and torque wrench onto the spark plug wrench.
thats how i do it
Ditto here. Easy peasy, and no investment?
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put your oem spark plug wrench on your plug and a socket and torque wrench onto the spark plug wrench.
thats how i do it
There you go. That never occurred to me. I'll probably still look for a deep socket that works since i hate opening up the OEM toolkit unless I have to but till then -- that works.
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greetings...
thats how i do it...
this is my twerk wrench...
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j o
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greetings...
thats how i do it...
this is my twerk
j o
Yes, but do you use a German twerk, gutten tite, or the French twerk, finessee' ? It makes a difference?
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btw the wheel nut spanner from the original kit fits on the small end of the spark plug spanner if on side of road with no torque wrench
and the shocker extension bar fits the wheel spanner as well
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Yeah, that and my "Just 'Nuff" torque wrench is how I've been doing it for 14 years for lack of a method of getting in there with a 3/8 in drive.
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When it comes to tightening spark plugs, drain plugs, ect. on an aluminum engine, I trust "feel" over a torque wrench. I like to be able to feel how the gasket is compressing as the plug is tightened, and you loose some of that feedback using a torque wrench vs. standard ratchet.
Torque wrenches can go out of spec if not calibrated regularly, particularly in the lower ranges. And torque specs are quoted for a new engine, not one that has miles of heat expansion and may have had the threads over-orqued by a previous owner. I had to Heli-coil the oil drain plug hole on my friend's KLR a few years ago, after she dialed the torque wrench up to Kawasaki's recommendation and the threads immediately stripped out... the wrench never clicked.
Andy
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No offense to you or your friend, but..........operator error is a possible in the equation?
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No offense to you or your friend, but..........operator error is a possible in the equation?
She knows how to use a click torque wrench. It was a new bike to her... I suspect that the plug was slightly over torqued by a previous owner.
Andy
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If that were the case, it would have clicked?
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And torque specs are quoted for a new engine, not one that has miles of heat expansion and may have had the threads over-orqued by a previous owner.
Piffle. Torque specs are quoted for clean, dry fasteners in reasonably good condition.
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If that were the case, it would have clicked?
That's my point. It didn't click because the threads stripped out before the factory torque setting (17 ft. lbs.) was reached.
Andy
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Piffle. Torque specs are quoted for clean, dry fasteners in reasonably good condition.
I disagree. Torque numbers for a steel 12mm bolt and nut- ie., fasteners- are not the same as torque numbers for a steel 12mm drain plug that's threaded into an aluminum case.
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I disagree. Torque numbers for a steel 12mm bolt and nut are not the same as torque numbers for a steel 12mm drain plug that's threaded into an aluminum case.
I trust your feelings. :Rabia:
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What's the torque for "finger tight"? That would be that asinine drain bolt for the front forks. I take that back, my fingers could strip it.
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She knows how to use a click torque wrench. It was a new bike to her... I suspect that the plug was slightly over torqued by a previous owner.
Andy
Slightly overtorqued and stripped are two very different things........just sayin. Not trying to get into a pissing match here.
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Slightly overtorqued and stripped are two very different things........just sayin. Not trying to get into a pissing match here.
OK, then maybe you'd be happy with "moderately overtorqued", or perhaps "partially overtorqued"? The point is that the aluminum stripped before the wrench clicked, while set to the factory torque spec.
If a fastener system is torqued slightly beyond the ability of its weakest component each time it is tightened, eventually it will be stripped.
Andy
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The point is that the aluminum stripped before the wrench clicked, while set to the factory torque spec.
If a novice can trust neither tools nor data but instead must rely on a sense of torque as transmitted through underdeveloped neural pathways and varying degrees of comparative muscular strength, that is a dilemma. To make matters even more challenging, the nefarious bike manufacturers who are supplying flawed data only suitable for new motos in so-called repair manuals and their faulty-tool manufacturing collegues are out to get them, too. It's exciting stuff but financially dependent on an increased birth-rate to balance the kill-off of owners from equipment failure.
It's a miracle the whole system works as well as it does. :clap:
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Well, we live in an imperfect world, certainly. Your nihilistic view of the situation is is perhaps good preparation for the less-extreme reality that we are actually faced with.
Andy
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I use Harbor Freight 1/4 and 3/8 drive torque wrenches so I take the whole 'torque spec' issue with a huge grain of salt. Before I purchased those aforementioned marvels of tool engineering four years ago, all I had was my "Just 'Nuff" wrench set.
And in those 10 years I only had to drill and helicoil once! (Oil pan mounting bolt...)
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BTW while we're on the subject, I'm ordering some new cables from tills.de and there are different ones for SAE and M4 connectors. I'm assuming we're in SAE land here which is probably why the 11/16 socket works. Has anyone encountered an M4 spark plug? That's a new one on me.
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Your nihilistic view of the situation . . .
I can't take credit for originating that view. I got it from reading your posts. :hehehe
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I use Harbor Freight 1/4 and 3/8 drive torque wrenches so I take the whole 'torque spec' issue with a huge grain of salt. Before I purchased those aforementioned marvels of tool engineering four years ago, all I had was my "Just 'Nuff" wrench set.
And in those 10 years I only had to drill and helicoil once! (Oil pan mounting bolt...)
Count me among those who use a torque wrench whenever possible. During my time as a Chevy mechanic I was in the minority as most used impact drivers to get it tight enough. With the increased use of torque-to-yield (TTY) fasteners and steel into aluminum I found it reassuring to know the faster was properly tightened.
I find a high quality dial-type in inch pounds most useful on my Beemers.
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I can't take credit for originating that view. I got it from reading your posts. :hehehe
No, you didn't. I made no mention of novices, underdeveloped neural pathways, any nefarious activity on the part of bike manufacturers, faulty tools, or anyone being killed by a stripped oil drain plug. You are responsible for your own words.
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Count me among those who use a torque wrench whenever possible. During my time as a Chevy mechanic I was in the minority as most used impact drivers to get it tight enough. With the increased use of torque-to-yield (TTY) fasteners and steel into aluminum I found it reassuring to know the faster was properly tightened.
I find a high quality dial-type in inch pounds most useful on my Beemers.
To be clear, I am a big fan of torque wrenches, own half a dozen, and use them regularly. But, for certain jobs, I prefer to trust feel. I'm not really sure why that's ruffled a few feathers.
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I'm not really sure why that's ruffled a few feathers.
It's a BMW forum. :loco: :Norton: :hehehe
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I have a number of torque wrenches and use them on a regular basis. However, there is no substitute for practical experience.
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BTW while we're on the subject, I'm ordering some new cables from tills.de and there are different ones for SAE and M4 connectors. I'm assuming we're in SAE land here which is probably why the 11/16 socket works. Has anyone encountered an M4 spark plug? That's a new one on me.
The M4 is the thread on the plug's top terminal. The "SAE" refers to the "click adapter" (for lack of a better term) that threads onto those 4mm threads and makes the top of the plug look like the US-style plug that most of us are used to. Each style is illustrated on the tills website along with its appropriate wires.
Most M4 plugs, in my experience, include the adapters.
Spark plug sizing is odd in general... the threads are metric, but the wrench hex is often fractional SAE. This is supposedly a relic of the early days of the auto industry, when Europe had a significant lead over US automobile manufacturing. Champion and AC- both major US plug manufacturers- were both started by Frenchman Albert Champion.
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No, you didn't. I made no mention of novices, underdeveloped neural pathways, any nefarious activity on the part of bike manufacturers, faulty tools, or anyone being killed by a stripped oil drain plug. You are responsible for your own words.
Someone needs to come up with a "Laitch -- take him with a grain of salt" emoji.
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Someone needs to come up with a "Laitch -- take him with a grain of salt" emoji.
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I think of him more like this.....
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The M4 is the thread on the plug's top terminal. The "SAE" refers to the "click adapter" (for lack of a better term) . . .
Terminal nut and bullet terminal nut are better terms. It's likely though, bulbous spark plug terminal grippy thing, screw-on-the-spark plug wire-holding gizmo and click-adapter etc. will grow into wider regional usage. I think I've got click adapters on some of my tools but those are technically labeled as sears.
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Terminal nut and bullet terminal nut are better terms. It's likely though, bulbous spark plug terminal grippy thing, screw-on-the-spark plug wire-holding gizmo and click-adapter etc. will grow into wider regional usage. I think I've got click adapters on some of my tools but those are technically labeled as sears.
Tills.de calls them "SAE nuts NGK Nupsies". A Google search for "nupsies", though interesting in its own way, doesn't really provide much enlightenment.
"Spark plug terminal nut", while somewhat mundane, seems to have a fairly wide reception.
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"Spark plug terminal nut", while somewhat mundane, seems to have a fairly wide reception.
Is it mundane because it is concise or mundane because it isn't cheery enough?
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Is it mundane because it is concise or mundane because it isn't cheery enough?
When compared to "nupsies", I'd think the answer would be obvious.
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When compared to "nupsies", I'd think the answer would be obvious.
Of course you would. :giggles
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Tills.de calls them "SAE nuts NGK Nupsies". A Google search for "nupsies", though interesting in its own way, doesn't really provide much enlightenment.
"Spark plug terminal nut", while somewhat mundane, seems to have a fairly wide reception.
Definition of Nupsi (I kid you not):
A 'Nupsi' (Austrian: 'Hupferl') is a small, (sometimes round), indefinable something. The nupsi sometimes protrudes from another, somewhat larger object.
The word 'Nupsi' is most often used in the vernacular when the speaker can't remember the proper word for the protrusion in question off the top of her/his head. This term usually relates to a funny, interesting, quirky, unusual or cute small something. The usage of the word is increasing. In some areas of Germany the Nupsi is also spelled with a 'b' as in 'Nubsi. In Berlin, one may refer to a 'Nu-hu-psi' which is often accompanied by a circular motion of the right index finger for emphasis.
There follows a long-winded etymology of the term, including variants in a number of local dialects.
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Humorarchiv/Sprache#Nupsi
So, probably the most accurate translation in this context might be 'nub', since Nupsi is itself a non-technical term.
But then again, WGAF?
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Not that I have a problem with that but...should be 17mm, no? Haven't been able to find a thin 17mm socket that I can use with a torque wrench. Any help?
I used a standard (not particularly thin-walled I believe) 18mm deep socket recently. 17mm is too small I'm pretty sure.