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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: kris on January 10, 2018, 06:05:47 PM
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1986 K100RT - looking to replace the temp sensor. BMW has discontinued this part listing. Does anyone have a Bosch part number or equivalent? There is a Chinese manufacturer of this component but I'm just not sure about quality. Reviews are hard to come by.
Thanks in advance!
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How about this (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/TEMPSENS-K197-p/tempsens-k197.htm), kris? They also have the gauge temp sensor, too.
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Laitch, thank you. You're a gentleman. I did see EME's listing and a couple of others. I am trying to decode this part by way of a Bosch (or other) part number in order that I can shop it. The Chinese option comes in at something like $10.00. I don't want to pay $40 US for a part that may come from the same factory in China! Wondering if Delco makes something like this. A Bosch number might allow me to cross-reference this part. It must be the Scot in my family ancestry...I like a bit of a deal - at least until I can't stand searching anymore and then I'll pay just about anything!
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I would suggest keeping an eye on eBay for a used sender. I suspect there may be 1 or 2 there right now.
I went through the aftermarket search a couple years ago when I added a temperature gauge to my RT. THe problems I ran into is that the gauge uses a special response curve from the sender that is difficult to match with an afterarket sender.
The second and major issue is that the location of the sender is into a fairly narrow water passage. That is the reason why the stock sender has a flat face. This is to prevent the normally extended tip of a temperature sender from obstructing the coolant flow.
I seem to recall that Bosch makes a sender for a Volkswagen that was a pretty close match as far as resistance range and the non-extended tip. Can't remember much more than that.
I found mine(2 of them) on eBay. They typically go for around $30 as I recall.
Here's a sensor that looks like a temp sender. Has same number(459 270) stamped in the body as the one pictured in the Max BMW parts fiche. Can't tell from the photos if the plastic is/was blue. To double check, ask if there is a hole in the face of the sender. A hole indicates an oil pressure switch, while a flat face is on the temperature sender.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-85-92-BMW-K100RS-K100-100-RS-OEM-MISC-ENGINE-SENSOR-MOTOR-WORKS-GENUINE/322790658116?fits=Make%3ABMW&epid=2269226692&hash=item4b27d29044:g:HnAAAOSw9c1ZzPr1:sc:USPSPriority!14052!US!-1
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Hi Jim. Happy New Year and thanks for the reply. Martin and I are giving the Chinese model a shot. We'll let you know. Do you think Beemer used Bosch originally? I'll check that number you referenced and see what comes up.
Cheers!
PS - how are you enjoying the thaw! We are now snowless....sopping wet instead. Had the Kawi out three days ago. She's the only one that would start! It felt great!
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For what it might be worth to some of you I offer the following:
According to an article posted on IBMWR.ORG's site the coolant temp sensor (Bosch original equipment) comes in as Bosch part number 0280 130 032. If the supplier doesn't sell Bosch then there is a "crossover reference" number TX 39. Blue Streak apparently uses this number and offers this sensor as does a company called Standard Motor Products. Just read that Standard Motor Products is headquartered in Long Island, NY and sells some of its products under the "Blue Streak" name, among many others. Should be no problem with availability.
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With the number of vehicles built with Jetronic ECU's I have to believe that those sensors will be available for a long time regardless of what BMW does. In fact, they may have discontinued the part because with all the alternative sources out there they could no longer gouge customers for it.
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My Chinese one arrived yesterday. If I have time I might start testing it today, I need to get a digital temperature gauge from Jaycar as the one I use at the moment is designed for checking milk temperature for coffee. If the looks are anything to go by then it would be hard to tell the OEM one from the Chinese one.
Regards Martin.
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HA!! Never gauge the quality of a Chinese product (especially electrical) by its outward appearance. The insides are what matters and there could be a world of difference between the OEM and the Chinese unit.
Case in point, check out this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/dishonest-chinese-power-supply-'engineering'/); the guy dismantled a Chinese power supply and, although the PF improvement choke looked the business, it was nothing more than paper filling!!!
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Yeah Rob I know looks can be deceiving but the quality of Chinese Products is improving. And there are heaps of things made in China that you would not even suspect are Chinese and you are currently using. And so far I am running a Chinese GPS, rear master cylinder, and fuel pump. The only problem I've encountered so far was a power supply failure on the GPS. I had no luck contacting the supplier and after three attempts replaced it with one I had in my box of bits. It is actually cheaper to replace the GPS every couple of years than update the maps. For the outlay of $10.00 for the sender I thought that it would be worthwhile to buy one and test it. OZ parts prices border on the ridiculous and alternatives need to be sourced where possible. Even with exorbitant freight costs it is often cheaper for us to get parts from the US or UK.
Regards Martin.
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I started testing the new one by sticking it in boiling water with a digital thermometer. With the temperature sender immersed in the water I checked the values with my multimeter, according to my meter the values are twice what they should be. I did the same with ice water and got the same result. My meter is either out or the sender is bad. I have been using the sender value chart that I found on the net.I have a mate who is a sparky and I am going over on Monday to run the tests again. I have not given feedback on Aliexpress, if the sender is bad I will inform the vendor and see what happens. The only other time I had a faulty product I had already placed feedback. My three attempts to solicit a response were not answered. I ended up replacing the faulty power supply that came with the GPS with one I had lying around. Standby for further news as it develops. One big question is the chart that I attached accurate?? I remember using other values that I found years ago but I don't know whether they were the same. I can't find the old values.
Regards Martin. [ Invalid Attachment ]
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Martin, Are you testing spade connector to spade connector with the multimeter? Or are you testing spade connector to sensor body?
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Spade connector to spade connector, thanks Rob I believe you have revealed the error in my test procedure. Correct would be spade to body?
Regards Martin
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Rob the only way I can get any sort of reading is when the meter is connected to the spade connectors. No reading with either spade connector to the body of the sensor. :dunno
Regards Martin.
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It sounds like you may have a sender for a 4 valve Motronic engine. I just did an electrical test on the one from my K100RS 4V and the only reading was beteween the pins, open circuit to the shell.
I could be wrong, but I think in the Motronic there is only one temperature signal that is used to generate the mixture and fan control functions where in the Jetronic two separate signals are used.
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I'm tending to agree with Gryphon on this. Looks like a Motronic temp sender rather than the Jetronic sender. this is born out in the schematics for the two different ignition systems as well.
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Thanks fellas looks like I bought my mate a spare sensor for his 4v. :hehehe :dunno I've checked again to make sure I ordered the correct one and it definitely shows it's for a K75, it also shows the symbol for a variable resistor going to earth. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-Engine-Coolant-Temperature-Temp-Sensor-For-BMW-Motorcycles-K-100-K-75-K75-K100/32680512124.html? There is another one by the same vendor $15.77 green connector and a fibre washer but it shows the same symbol and also says for a k75. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-Coolant-Water-Temperature-Sensor-For-BMW-K-75-K75-Jaguar-XJ-Porsche-928-IVECO/32591241965.html?
I just sent off a query to the vendor as follows.
Bella I have received the sender, however it appears to be the sender for the 4 valve later Motronic system not the earlier 2 valve Jetronic system. Before installation I tested the sensor with a multimeter and a digital thermometer. I could not get any readings between either spade pin and earth. The only readings I could get were across the pins, which varied as the temperature changed. I rechecked that I ordered the correct one and it definitely stated it was for a K75. I would appreciate a quick response to this problem.
Regards Martin.
I will post any replies, if I do get any. Live in hope die in despair.
Regards Martin.
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Just got back from a mates place. Tested the new one against a known good one, the results were the same reading across the spade connectors.
and a variable reading between either of the spades and the body. Still could not get a reading on the new one between either spade and the body. So the conclusion is either wrong one or faulty??
Regards Martin.
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Can't complain about the service list of emails between the vendor and myself in reverse order. I only sent the first email this morning.
Bella Wang
18/01/14 17:45
Hello friend,
Ok, we will send you another one today, and we will give you the tracking number, thanks for your understanding.
Bella thanks for your prompt reply, another one would be greatly appreciated.
Regards Martin.
Me
18/01/14 17:44
Bella Wang
18/01/14 17:30
Hello friend,
sorry to hear that, we will do our best to solve your problem. we can send you another one for free of charge, or we refund you the full money, is it ok? thanks!
looking forward to your reply,
Best Regards,
Bella
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See if the seller can quickly test the new one for proper operation. They should just verify some resistance between a spade connector and the body of the sensor. If they don't test it, they might just send you another incorrect device.
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Rob I thought about it, but then decided as I don't actually need it at the moment that it might be a better test. But I chickened out and sent a request for a test. :2thumbup:
Regards Martin.
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A rather big chance that you just get another incorrect sensor, lot of mistakes in that advertissement.
The correct BMW part number for the 2V models is listed among a lot of others, which this obviously isn't.
The sensor don't match the symbol used in the adv., which you allready have stated.
The symbol in the adv. isn't correct either, it should have been like the one below.
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Inge they are going to test the sensor before they send it. For $10.00 I am willing to do the research. It also might be possible that it was just a faulty sensor as there was the same resistance readings between the spade connectors on a known good OEM one and the Chinese one. :dunno If the new one is good, it will be a good result for all inmates as they are ultra cooperative and quick in answering any concerns, they appear at this stage to be legit.
Regards Martin.
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Keep us posted, Martin. As you know I'm in the same boat with you!
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Ok, so I buy the $10 sensor, install it and find out it isn't the right one or it doesn't work right. I'm out about 5-6 hours of screwing around with my fairings and cooling system.
Or, I test it and find out it's not right and then have to go through contact with the seller and waiting for a replacement. Same thing with scenario above.
Meanwhile the bike is off the road for a month or more. $10 doesn't sound like a deal to me when I figure in the odds against getting the part I need. Especially when I can get a good used one on-line in less than a week for maybe $10-15 more.
I'm getting less interested in doing business with the Chinese. Just recently I bought 8 different packages of stainless fasteners for the Moby Brick. After waiting 2 1/2 weeks they arrive, and 2 of the 8 parts are not what I ordered and not usable. Do I contact the seller for the right parts and wait another 2 1/2 weeks or do I get what I need locally? The Chinese are always polite and apologetic, but the time lost in shipping can kill the momentum on a project. The more complicated the part is the less likely it's going to be what I need.
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Gryph tell me where I can get one for $10.00-$15.00 more in a week in OZ, really no cheap anything in OZ. Have not seen one on Ebay or Gumtree for ages very little available especially for K75's. You guys are spoiled for choice, most of the time it is far cheaper for us to source from overseas. I am attempting preempt parts failure and get a stock of parts that are getting harder to get. Even I'm not in a bad position compared to some as I have a source of loaner parts from a mate. An acquaintance with a couple of bricks rang me the other day urgently chasing a rear master cylinder, I sold him my spare Chinese one for cost. As Bricks age it is going to get harder to source parts to keep them on the road. Alternatives needs to be sourced. So far I'm happy with my Chinese GPS, Master cylinder, and fuel pump. Occasionally I will probably get a dud I am willing to deal with it.
Regards Martin.
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Occasionally I will probably get a dud I am willing to deal with it.
And so you should, living in Paradise and all. :giggles
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Paradise and my éclairs don't suffer from frostbite, unlike your profiteroles. :hehehe
Regards a warm and contented Martin.
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Parts jobbers in my neck of the woods want CDN $50 for the temp sensor. Sometimes it is better to shop locally. Even if I see one for USD 25 I have to pay a 30 per cent exchange rate and then shipping fees anywhere from USD 15 to 50 to get it into Canada. I kid you not....some of the shipping quotes are ridiculous! So, as much as the initial Canadian price looked stupid, it turns out it might have been the smartest choice in the end. And I can drive down and pick it up in 10 minutes....cost/ benefit, eh?
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I borrowed a OEM sensor of a mate. I connected a multimeter to the terminals on the OEM one and sat it in boiling water and recorded the results every time time the water decreased by 5C. I did the same with the two aftermarket ones and recorded the results and allowing for slight discrepancies the results were virtually identical. Can Rob or Inge or anybody answer the following questions, if the readings are the same for any given temperature why won't the aftermarket ones work? What is the purpose of it earthing through the sensors body? I was going to test all the sensors again but my new digital temperature gauge crapped out. I'll take it back to Jaycar tomorrow. I am getting to the stage where I might just fit one and see what happens, probably next weekend should only take 1-2 hours. Once I run the temperature test again I'll post the results. I don't believe the graph that I posted is for the 2v Brick.
Regards Martin.
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Can Rob or Inge or anybody answer the following questions, if the readings are the same for any given temperature why won't the aftermarket ones work?
If the Reading from each terminal to the housing is the as the OEM 2V sensor it should work.
What is the purpose of it earthing through the sensors body?
That is how the analouge Jetronic is designed to read the sensor value.
Motronic is digital and sends out a 5V+ signal which Returns via the second sensor terminal,
the motronic reads the voltage drop as the actuall value.
I don't believe the graph that I posted is for the 2v Brick.
It's for the 2V models and is from the troubleshooting guide at the K100 forum, and have helped many
members during the years it have existed.
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If the temperature response curve is the same as OEM and the electrical connections inside the sensor are the same as OEM and the physical dimensions are the same as OEM, then it should work.
The 2V temp sensor in the stand pipe on the left side of the engine consists of two separate resistors with a common connection shared between them. Each remaining end of the resistors (there are 2) will terminate at the spade lugs. The common connection goes to the body of the sensor. That's why the sensor has to ground out through the body; so that electrically the common point is referenced to ground. With this sensor, Bosch are producing a 3-terminal device in a package containing only 2 terminals. Most other temp sensors have only one resistor inside (including the one used on the 4V Motronic models) where each end of the resistor terminates in the spade lugs . The body is electrically isolated and therefore will not function with the L-Jetronic.
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Thanks Rob I appreciate picking your brain. If I can free up enough time I might try and fit the new one today, if not next weekend. If I do fit it I will put the OEM one in the tail unit, although besides the power supply for the GPS nothing else Chinese has failed. I am looking at getting a set of spare HES's and guess where they are made. The way I am going I might have to join the Chang Jiang forum and change the badges. :hehehe What scale should I be setting my multimeter on when testing the sensor, I have been setting it on 20k. :dunno
Regards Martin.
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Decided to bite the bullet and fit one, they don't work. The engine immediately floods. I took a shortcut when fitting it, I removed the MAF and went in that way. So the job will take about two hours.
Regards Martin.
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When the sensor don't have any ground connection the Jetronic unit reads it as infinite resistance to ground,
and think that it's very damn cold indeed.
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Thanks Inge least I know they don't work. I'm trying to find another cheap source of one that works. A mates son who works for a large auto electrical company and is looking for a cheaper alternative. :dunno The process at least allowed me to clean the OEM one properly. The contacts were pretty grungy and required scraping as well as using DeoxIT. :2thumbup:
Regards Martin.
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Inge they are going to test the sensor before they send it. For $10.00 I am willing to do the research. It also might be possible that it was just a faulty sensor as there was the same resistance readings between the spade connectors on a known good OEM one and the Chinese one. :dunno If the new one is good, it will be a good result for all inmates as they are ultra cooperative and quick in answering any concerns, they appear at this stage to be legit.
Regards Martin.
Edit - sorry, I have just realised, the topic is spanning two pages, I have read only the first one.... So now realising, Martin did not succeed with the Chinese alternatives, I suppose it is time to source one from breakers... Or try to clean the one in the bike :)
Hi guys, sorry to retrieve an old topic... I am having 'trouble' cold starting the bike - meaning even in 30C summer my 75S needs choke for it's first start, or a start of a partially cooled down bike (like half an hour after a longish city ride in the summer heat with the fan kicking in a few times). I have replaced the fuel filter, but that made matters even worse, bike now most definitely needs a choke, otherwise it will not even start and needs it on for 5-10 minutes, otherwise idle is 5-600RPM. Bike otherwise rides like a champ, so next in line will be water temp sensor, am I right?
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A new one didn't fix the cold start issues on my "85, still trying to figure it out.
Fuel economy is poor too which is wierd as it feels like it isn't getting fuel when cold.
Hot is pretty good. It can get too hot and then it bucks.
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Hi Gabe
Maybe test it before replacing it.
Since Europe is having an Australian summer this year, for comparison I never need the choke and the fan very rarely comes on.
I have a vague memory that you altered the air/fuel ratio and maybe even the airflow meter vane. Excessive need of choke and overheating point to lean mixture as a possibility. Parts not measured by the coolant sensor may be overheating. Consider returning stuff back to factory settings. You can guess my other guess causing a lean mix.
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I'll just throw out a little reminder here, though you probably all know it, these fuel injected bikes don't have a "choke".... per se, it is only a throttle advance.
The term "choke" was a hold over from the carburated bikes that actually did have a choke butterfly plate in them.
I return you now to regular programming.
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Guys, thank you for your replies and sorry to first retrieve and subsequently hijack this thread...
A new one didn't fix the cold start issues on my "85, still trying to figure it out.
Fuel economy is poor too which is wierd as it feels like it isn't getting fuel when cold.
Hot is pretty good. It can get too hot and then it bucks.
Same here. Fuel economy is poor-ish (although summer brought with it a bit better consumption). Lean mixture causes crap fuel economy too, as the engine is not working as efficiently as it should. I do not have a CO tester, neither do the mechanics I know around here, but the MOT stations do, so I might just pay them some dough to try to get a proper mixture
Hi Gabe
Maybe test it before replacing it.
Since Europe is having an Australian summer this year, for comparison I never need the choke and the fan very rarely comes on.
I have a vague memory that you altered the air/fuel ratio and maybe even the airflow meter vane. Excessive need of choke and overheating point to lean mixture as a possibility. Parts not measured by the coolant sensor may be overheating. Consider returning stuff back to factory settings. You can guess my other guess causing a lean mix.
Dave - Good point on testing, I did that, when I first got the bike, but Laitch was suggesting testing the sensor at the sensor itself and not at the computer, as I did it, so I guess it is time to do it that way. I did not touch the mixture setting, neither the vane, I think Soggz was having a go at something like that. I still might have a lean mixture though, however the new fuel filter should have made the mixture richer, not leaner, I'd guess.
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Too right, my brain went AWOL on the choke and the bike.
But I do remember that you replaced the injectors, then your headers turned blue. To me that presents a clear and present danger, requiring action. It points to a lean mix, causing overheating. Maybe disable the coils and check the injectors spray pattern, maybe volume too.
Some of your other symptoms were contradictory, if you made some changes maybe go back to factory settings.
Sounds like you need another fuel filter, sometimes a new one is bad if the sealing caps were loose, cracked or missing.
Your other high idle problem maybe also points to a lean mix. Reducing the idle speed masks the problem, applying the "choke" overcomes the mask.
Maybe.
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Too right, my brain went AWOL on the choke and the bike.
But I do remember that you replaced the injectors, then your headers turned blue. To me that presents a clear and present danger, requiring action. It points to a lean mix, causing overheating. Maybe disable the coils and check the injectors spray pattern, maybe volume too.
Some of your other problems were contradictory, if you made some changes maybe go back to factory settings.
Your other high idle problem maybe also points to a lean mix. Reducing the idle speed masks the problem, applying the "choke" overcomes the mask.
Maybe.
Dave, you are right, my high idle was masking a problem, a not perfectly balanced TB. Since then I have lowered the idle to 900-950 and re-balanced the whole shebang, now my bike idles very happily at those RPM's. Injectors are the same, however I have replaced the cracked one with a known good one, my headers are normal colour now, plugs look perfect. I have bored myself to death with the OCD I have, but I keep soldiering on :D