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TECHNICAL MOTOBRICK WRENCHING In Remembrance of Inge K. => The Motobrick Workshop => Topic started by: Martin on October 16, 2017, 04:03:59 PM
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I occasionally get fuel vaporization on my black K75s under certain conditions. Running in slow moving city traffic with under half a tank on a hot day. I've installed reflective foam insulation under the tank and I have partially insulated the return line. I can fix the vaporization, and have done so by running a full tank when going into town, however this is not curing the underlying problem. Currently I am looking at TMG solution and fitting a fuel cooler, I like the design of this cooler and it's solid simple construction. However I have been stumped on where to locate it or any other types on a K75s with out forgoing the belly pan. The only solution I've come up with involves getting the local hobby foundry to cast me up a billet of aluminium , and with the use of my cross slide drill press and my high speed wood router making up a custom one. Gryph if I get the information on the site where you purchased yours the diameter is 4'' is that correct. All and any suggestions appreciated.
Regards Martin.
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Martin, 4" sounds about right, and about 10" long. Internal volume is about 1 liter. This volume is important in that it translates to transit time. The longer the fuel is in the cooler, the more heat is removed.
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Thanks Gryph I'm having trouble trying to fit something that large on my bike. As you are aware there isn't a lot of room on a 75s.The only one I can find of your type is 12" with a bit of wrangling and minor fin trimming I could get an 8" one to fit and look reasonable. The 10" one while possible to physically fit but would not look real good. I have been cruising Ebay and other sites trying to find an 8'' version of yours or something that will fit and to date I haven't found much. It looks like I might have to go to the foundry and see if they will cast me a block or a bit of solid round.
Regards Martin.
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I occasionally get fuel vaporization on my black K75s under certain conditions. Running in slow moving city traffic with under half a tank on a hot day. I've installed reflective foam insulation under the tank and I have partially insulated the return line. I can fix the vaporization, and have done so by running a full tank when going into town, however this is not curing the underlying problem. Currently I am looking at TMG solution and fitting a fuel cooler, I like the design of this cooler and it's solid simple construction.
Because fuel cooling is the subject of this thread and The Mighty Gryphon's installation has been a focal point concerning this strategy, here is the link to a K100 Forum thread containing Gryph's comprehensive description and images of his installation. Interspersed in it are images of coolers used by other riders who are members of that site.
Fuel Cooler Installation On A K75RT (http://www.k100-forum.com/t9594-k75rt-fuel-cooler#113838)
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Currently I am looking at TMG solution and fitting a fuel cooler, I like the design of this cooler and it's solid simple construction. However I have been stumped on where to locate it or any other types on a K75s with out forgoing the belly pan.
Regards Martin.
Couldn't this mounting be adapted to Gryph's cooler on your bike?
http://www.k100-forum.com/t9594-k75rt-fuel-cooler#141407
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Thanks Laitch but room is scarce on the k75s. I've looked at the other installations and there is nothing really applicable. The only one that I might be able to fit is Gryphs version if I can get it in an 8" version or shorten one down. There is very little room behind the belly pan or in front of the radiator. I don't want to install it in front of the belly pan or fairing. The only spot I have come up with so far is above the fuel rail with 8" version with trimmed down fins. The other choice is to see the foundry next weekend and see if they will make me a billet that I can machine down. And I'm still chasing compact ones on the net.
Regards Martin.
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I did find this but it might be too small to be effective. But I suppose any cooling is better than none.Available a lot cheaper if I hunt around.
Regards Martin.
Motorcycle-Oil-Cooler-Kit.jpg (15.17 kB . 220x220 - viewed 620 times)
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Having built a few heat transfer devices in the past, (mostly to cool sensitive electronics) I would recommend that you look at sourcing copper components if space is limited. It will allow the most cooling in the smallest space. Copper is a good conductor of heat. Most metals are pretty good conductors; however, apart from silver, ($$) copper is the best. We've used it in many cooling applications because it doesn't corrode and has a high melting point. The only other material that has similar resistance to corrosion is stainless steel which doesn't conduct heat nearly as well.
Maybe start searching for "copper liquid heat exchangers." I found this one (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Barrow-copper-240mm-computer-Water-discharge-liquid-heat-exchanger-threaded-thread-radiator-for-12cm-fans-Dabel/32727790344.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.1.nxIRcV&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_5_10152_10065_10151_10130_10068_10344_10345_10342_10343_10340_10341_10307_10060_10155_10154_10056_10055_10054_10539_10538_10537_10059_10536_10535_10534_10533_100031_10099_10338_10103_10102_5590020_10052_10053_10107_10050_10142_10051_10324_10325_10084_10083_5370020_10080_10082_10081_5610020_10178_10110_10111_10112_10113_10114_10312_10313_10314_10078_10079_10073,searchweb201603_24,ppcSwitch_5&btsid=bca9debc-6a46-403e-acdd-1d290fa0070a&algo_expid=11e273af-8514-468f-9937-67ae6ccddfbe-0&algo_pvid=11e273af-8514-468f-9937-67ae6ccddfbe) with that search term. Most of what you might find would be aimed at the electronics market, but since copper is highly resistant to corrosion, it could work as a fuel cooler and withstand the environments found on a motorcycle.
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Thanks Riots nice looking unit if only I can find a place to fit it. I might have to pull the centre section of the fairing off and the belly pan and try and work out how much room I have. Not a lot.
Regards Martin.
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I took my bike for a test ride today after installing a fuel cooler at the weekend. There is a definite difference - though more testing is needed to see if I can leave it where it is but so far looking good - I guess I have also increased my tank capacity as a side effect! With the extra tubing and the cooler itself I bet there is half a liter or more extra space now.
(http://www.motobrick.com/gallery/0/3823-151017111519-758862.jpeg)
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Filmcamera the K75s has no room behind the belly pan less than 10mm. the upper middle fairing in front of the radiator has probably 13mm between the radiator and the fairing mesh. I have after heaps of head scratching come up with only one place so far and that is above the fuel rail.
Regards Martin.
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I have seen them hung on the outside of the mesh in front of the radiator, not very pretty there but it works - I might end up moving mine there if it turns out it is too close to the engine where it is and so does not work properly.
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I might end up moving mine there if it turns out it is too close to the engine where it is and so does not work properly.
It might be somewhat effective where it is, but it might be much more effective mounted away from the engine as in your post's image. I believe it could be integrated onto the outside of the cowl more attractively than with zip-ties though. Outside seems to be the way to go.
Once you're underway in the midst of hot weather, your thighs will tell you what to do, if you're on speaking terms with them. :giggles
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Just got back from my Dump day (Recycle)campout. I was hoping to pickup up a router table but no such luck. However I have got around the need for a table. After the recycle I went over to the foundry and explained what I wanted, they quoted me $25.00 for the 8" cooler $30.00 if they have to do a recast. I would have to supply a wood pattern. I went back to the recycle where the local men's shed run a sausage sizzle every Friday and they do wood work at their shed. I told them what I wanted and they have given me a couple of their members phone numbers who would be able to route out the pattern. I've got one more mate who might have a router table so I'll give him a go before I phone the men's shed guys. It all seems to be coming together.
Regards Martin.
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The men's shed were unable to make a wooden pattern that the casting plant would except. I ended up routing out a wooden pattern using my drill press with a cross slide vice. I tried a couple of different tools, breaking one with a 1/8 shaft. Ended up using a 1/4"cone shaped burr grinder bit, after a lot of minor problems. I have routed thin aluminium in it before, but only up to 5mm. I needed to route out to a depth of 15m,and due to the side thrust encountered the chuck kept on dropping out. When this happened the bit would wander, I tried belting it in with a lump of wood and a hammer, it would cut two grooves straight then would wander as the chuck dropped. I tried smaller multiple cuts no go.
I tried the old talcum powder trick. but eventually solved it by lapping in the chuck with fine valve grinding paste. I thought every thing was fine used a new bit of wood. and managed to cut two or three grooves before it would skew off. the vice table was slowly pivoting under load. I had to put additional leverage onto the bolt that clamps the table and remove all traces of lubricant. I finally managed to route out all the grooves. Under the instructions I received from the casting plant I trimmed of both ends at a slight angle to aid removal of the pattern from the sand.
Last Sunday I dropped of the pattern for approval, and was told to come back on Tuesday if I wanted to see the process. I brought The Ministers camera and took a heap of pictures of the process which I have been unable to shrink with Picresize. I will post at a later date when I can shrink them. The whole process didn't take long, about 45min. They use a different mix of aluminium for different castings, alloy heads pistons and other things depending on requirements. After they broke it out of the sand It was looking good, it will require a bit of a clean up but very true to the original less than 1mm difference. I will start on the clean up and drilling the galleries this week.
Really good guys at the plant I had a good look around this time. There are three sections woodwork, metalwork and the casting plant all run by retirees. While the casting was cooling I was invited into the machine shop. Heaps of equipment, I was in heaven they have two metal lathes a turret mill a small CNC router, and the guy showing me around has a 3D printer and is willing to do projects for members. He had a look at the wood pattern and said he could of saved me a lot of work and run it up in the mill and done it in two pieces and routed out the galleries. He trains guys on how to use it all. I will join in seven months time when I finally fully retire. The yearly cost is a paltry $30.00 Au annually.
Regards Martin.
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Sounds cool. At $30 to access all that neat stuff it's a no brainer to join. Just be careful of the aluminium fumes. Aluminium has been linked to Alzheimer's.
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Gryph thanks for the warning, but due to the complexity of getting it right the castings seem to be only done by a couple of guys. The furnace is located outside. I'm really looking forward to getting access to the turret mill, CMC router, and the better lathes. And possibly learning how to do 3D printing. Due to the fact that I don't work on the days that they operate I might join up in January. At the moment I'm still having problems trying to use Picresize, I've tried both our computers and both come up with invalid image warning. I've even tried images that I have shrunk previously and get the same problem. Can any body recommend any other resizing program.
Regards Martin.
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Can any body recommend any other resizing program.
Regards Martin.
Paint, included in Windows......and very easy to use.
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Thanks Inge I don't have Paint but I do have paint 3D, I have uploaded a picture into it how do you reduce it?? :dunno
Regards Martin.
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Haven't used Paint 3D, so I don't know much about that. Which Windows version do you use?
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Windows 10, I lost Paint when we updated to Windows 10. And I haven't played with 3D Paint. I might have it sussed I'm going to try and attach to this post.
Regards Martin.
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Maybe it's hidden away in some dark corner.
Have a look at this: https://www.softwareok.com/?seite=faq-Windows-10&faq=45 (https://www.softwareok.com/?seite=faq-Windows-10&faq=45)
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I found the dark corner, pictures of the casting process.
Fuel Cooler Pattern 1.jpg (56.18 kB . 768x576 - viewed 551 times)
Fuel Cooler Pattern 2.jpg (50.11 kB . 768x576 - viewed 532 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting Furnace .jpg (93.32 kB . 768x576 - viewed 518 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting 1.jpg (64 kB . 768x576 - viewed 521 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting 2.jpg (63.8 kB . 768x576 - viewed 543 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting 3.jpg (62.71 kB . 768x576 - viewed 522 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting 4.jpg (61.95 kB . 768x576 - viewed 582 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting 5.jpg (63.13 kB . 768x576 - viewed 556 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting 6.jpg (64.16 kB . 768x576 - viewed 583 times)
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I'll start the process off cleaning and drilling the galleries on Friday. I was going to use a bridge and a couple of Banjo bolts to connect a couple of the galleries. But have now decided to mill a recessed cross bridge on the back and have a cover plate welded in. I just have to find someone with a TIG.
Regards Martin.
Fuel Cooler Casting Pour .jpg (70.35 kB . 768x576 - viewed 494 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting Cleaning 1 .jpg (40.57 kB . 768x576 - viewed 500 times)
Fuel Cooler Casting Cleaning 2 .jpg (43.17 kB . 768x576 - viewed 485 times)
Fuel Cooler New Casting 1 .jpg (61.55 kB . 768x576 - viewed 506 times)
Fuel Cooler New Casting 2 .jpg (59.53 kB . 768x576 - viewed 502 times)
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Your CNC machines are going to need code, converted from vector files, to plot the tool paths. Pixels ain't going to work ...
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Ed the only code I know is Morse, the only Vector is a car and aren't Pixels a type of fairy?? :dunno
Regards Martin.
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Morse is tapered, Vector is for cereal killers, and faeries sprinkle pixie dust on their cappuccino racers.
Pixels dont go well with Illustrator, AutoCad, SolidWorks, etc
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Getting there slowly all the galleries drilled and tapped bar one. Went to a couple of places chasing 1/4" BSPT Allen plugs, all that I could find were hex plugs which I could use if I wanted to make them non removable. I'll wait till Monday and try a few more places, if I can't get them I'll order them of Aliexpress. I had a gauge and a couple of fitting that I could substitute for one of the plugs. Not sure whether to go that route. I am also not sure about painting it. I was going to hit it with a coarse sand blast then paint it black and polish the end of the fins. Still trying to find someone to weld on the back cover plate which I will recess into the back of the cooler so that once welded it will be flush.
Regards Martin.
Fuel Cooler Galleries 1.jpg (58.52 kB . 768x576 - viewed 515 times)
Fuel Cooler Galleries 2.jpg (34.79 kB . 768x576 - viewed 495 times)
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Fuel Cooler Galleries 5.jpg (63.68 kB . 768x576 - viewed 464 times)
Fuel Cooler Galleries 3.jpg (61.65 kB . 768x576 - viewed 455 times)
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Looking good!
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Thanks Gryph I am happy with the way it is turning out. And I don't know whether anybody else does this. But over the years I tend to solve things in my sleep, and I may have done it last night. I may be just weird. :hehehe I am looking at drilling a hole at 90o to the galleries B and C right between them replacing the routed hole. I will then drill and tap it to take an 1/4" allen plug. I also believe that rough sandblasted surfaces disperse heat more than a machined surface, and I need to look at that. As to the paint I'm still undecided, it will probably be more efficient unpainted, but it will match in better painted. Any input appreciated.
Regards Martin.
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Spent 2.5 hours chasing bits, the third place I tried had six only of the Allen plugs. :clap:The rest of the time I zig zagged back in the direction of home chasing Teflon paste I eventually got it at the local Super Cheap the closest car place to home. I had tried six places before I struck gold. I proceeded to fit it out and I am reasonably happy with it. But when I went to make the brackets and found I had no aluminium flat bar. I had had enough of chasing around in the morning and also had to take the Honorable Minister to the Doctors ( Nothing serious). So I will have to chase some flat bar tomorrow. However I had some double side tape so I stuck it on roughly in the position it will occupy give or take an inch. It does sort of stand out a bit more than I anticipated so a paint job including the end of the fins might be called for.
Regards Martin.
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Your fuel cooler looks pretty sanitary.. If the gauge was not there I doubt it would catch the eye of anyone not familiar with the bike. It blends in almost perfectly, excellent work!!
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Wow, that looks good!
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Looks great!
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Thanks fellas, the gauge is only there probably until I get a pressure reading on the return line. I am also one Allen plug short, I did a slight booboo that required me use 6 instead of 5. The place I got them from has one left, which I will snap up today. I'm also interested to know what the pressure is and will it show up problems with the FPR. :dunno
Not entirely happy with the fin spacing, the original pattern was made with the cooler fin spacing mimicking the valve cover. However due to the restrictions imposed by the sandcasting process, and the use of my drill press with a burr grinder bit as a mill required thicker fins. However I have learned a lot and if I decide to do a Mark 2 version now with access to a turret mill and a CNC router who knows what can be achieved. I have know learned how to join parallel galleries without resorting to welding. I am going over to get some stainless flat off my mate for the brackets, I was going to use aluminium but he has talked me into stainless. :nono
I have also decided to give a coat of satin black and leave the fins polished. I think painting it will allow it to blend in a bit better. I might even paint the end of the fins, if I don't like it I can always buff of the paint. I know unpainted aluminium disperses heat better but from what I can find out there is only a slight difference between the two. :2thumbup:
Regards Martin.
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I am jealous that you live where a fuel cooler is useful.
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John I would love to visit Canada it looks like an incredible place. However after doing 10 years in Bass Strait in winter, with winds coming off Antarctica I could only do so in your summer. I moved here to finally be warm all year around. Native Queenslanders complain about the cold in winter and I still run around in shorts and maybe a light jumper of which I only possess two. But even though Queensland is warm, the riding in what they call rain can be daunting. What they call rain here is a deluge down south. :hehehe
Regards a warm and happy if slightly soggy Martin.
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After a lot of head scratching I decided not to mount the cooler off the stainless steel bar that runs across the front of the throttle bodies. The bolts are only 5mm and if mounted flush to the rail impede access to the vacuum ports. I was going to try heavy Velcro, so I had a look at what Bunnings had to offer and found something that has heaps more grip. Had a bit of stuffing around routing the hoses, eventually got something that worked. The return hose has not been altered in length and therefore the cooler can be taken out of the circuit at anytime. Even though the new type of Velcro is extremely good I added a safety strap as a precaution. I had a minor fuel weep on start up from one off the Allen plugs just required a minor nip up. The only problem was the paint which although drying for two days is still tacky, could have been the humidity. I will have to strip it and repaint at some stage. We are coming up to some hot days so I will take the laser temp gun with me and try and get some readings.
Regards Martin.
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Martin, have you looked at 3M Dual Lock. It's similar to Velcro, but an awful lot stronger.
Your installation looks good. It will be interesting to see what the temperature difference is between the input and output fittings.
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Gryph I think this is Scotch's version of 3M Dual Lock, hooks on both pads. One piece is supposed to hold 10 lb I've used two pieces. The only way it will fail I believe is where the pads stick either to the air box or the cooler. Once I'm satisfied that they will hold in the heat and the rain I might remove the strap.
Regards Martin.
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Martin, I agree, the adhesive backing is the weak point. Depends on how hot the surfaces get, If you can touch and hold your fingers against the airbox and cooler I would think the adhesive should be okay.
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BTW, Scotch is a trademark of 3M. They are both the same company. If I'm not mistaken, Scotch is the consumer brand, while 3M is the professional brand. Different packaging, not sure about design or quality differences, if any.
I've used Dual Lock, and it is not the same as Velcro. The two halves of the system are identical, and actually snap together. Rather than hooks like Velcro, the Dual lock has knobs.
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Nice work, Martin! You're having waaaay more fun than me. No fair! For what's it's worth I liked the cooler (very cool) with the gauge on it. It gave it an interesting retro and more dangerous look. If you need a gauge to monitor fuel pressure it must be serious....
Life ain't perfect. The fins are fine.
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The two halves of the system are identical, and actually snap together. Rather than hooks like Velcro, the Dual lock has knobs.
Just what Martin have used, if you look a bit closer on the photos.
It's also used on the front mudguard on the K1100LT......BMW is also calling it velcro...but it ain't.
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I need new glasses...
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I went for a short test ride to the shops 2K. Half way there it started to drop one cylinder and run rough and hesitate on acceleration. I did what I had to do quickly, and when I went to start it was reluctant to turn over. The engine ran rough on the way back and cut out twice at the traffic lights and I just managed to get it to fire up, it was reluctant to turn over. Once home and on the stand it would hardly turn over and after two tries would not turn over. At this stage I didn't want the relay to stick so stopped trying, and decided to investigate.
One hose on the cooler had developed a kink so I removed it and blew it through no blockages. Next checked the vacuum line to the FPR looking for fuel, it was fine. Next step removed the spark plugs which were very sooty. Tried the starter and it turned over but not at it's normal vigour. listened for the pump and it was pumping. Put on my spark plug lead test harness and went through the plugs one at a time checking the spark. They were not that strong not that but strong enough to illicit starting. Replaced the plugs with new ones, and tried to start it wouldn't turn over.
Put the brick on charge and before I went to bed, I tried it and it fired right up and ran smooth. This morning I put the multimeter on the bike. The readings as follows static ignition off 12.58v ignition on 12.10v run at idle 11.81 rev to 2500 13.23v. I couldn't really get a reading on the current draw on hitting the starter, it start too easily at a guess about 11.5v. I'm suspecting the battery as it is 5-6 years old but the running rough has got me a bit stumped. It should of run smooth when the alternator cut in. I rang Turbo Batteries to see if I could get a RevPlus AGM battery. The last time they didn't have a Deka which had been my previous battery of choice. Looking on line I could not find the same RevPlus number. The took the bikes information and said as they were busy would ring back later, that was yesterday afternoon it is now the next day.
As I have to work today I'll have to investigate further this afternoon when I finish.
Regards Martin.
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Refitted the newly painted cooler. And I encountered a slight side effect from fitting it. When the fuel level drops, but not low enough to activate the low fuel light the pump starts to scream like a banshee. I removed the filler cap and had a look, the bottom half of the pump was fully submerged. I was wondering whether the pump had picked up something? It has got a fully intact OEM screen. I decided the first thing was to eliminate the cooler as a problem so I removed it first. As soon as it was removed the noise disappeared. :dunno As the temperature in my garage is about 30 C I has decided to ruminate on the matter and leave it for another day. I suppose I could refit it and use the screaming as a warning for the fuel light about to come on. :hehehe
Regards Martin.
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As soon as it was removed the noise disappeared. :dunno as a warning for the fuel light about to come on. :hehehe
I think turbulence within the cooler is restricting fuel flow. The fuel path might be too angular. Otherwise, I think it's signalling profiterole and Cuban coffee time.
:yippee:
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Laitch it is weird it didn't do it with a full tank. On my first test run it made that noise as I was on my way to fill up with fuel it stalled just before the service station and refused to start. With great effort and nearly blacking out I managed to get it to the servo. Once refuelled it fired right up rode it home no noise. This was the first time I had ever run out of fuel on the Brick and there was no warning light. When I got it home the relay and four pin connector saga started. I tried to look up where the return line comes out in the tank, I was going to try and add a bit of hose tomorrow to see if that makes any difference. At the moment the solution to the vaporization problem, seems to be a double edged sword. Low fuel with no cooler vaporization, low fuel with a cooler screaming banshee. :hehehe :dunno It's even to hot to go and sit under a palm tree and contemplate. However it's not too hot to go and get a Beefies chocolate Éclair tomorrow. Pictures to follow.
Regards Martin.
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Laitch I'll see your profiterole and raise you one éclair . :lets-eat:
Regards Martin.
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I'd like a cross-section Beefy's eclair photo, please. :yes
I'd like to understand the interior fuel path of the cooler. If the fuel must move through hard ,right-angle bends or whether there are curves to its path.
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Sorry Laitch the Éclair seems to have gone missing, all I could find was a few crumbs. :lets-eat: The problem however has been fixed. This morning I refitted the cooler and I changed the following things I substituted the top right angle cooler fitting for a straight one. Switched over the in and out lines. Rerouted the lines to eliminated any possibility of a kinked line when pushing back the tank in position. This now involved having to loosen the fairing (K75s) in order to tighten the return line hose clamp. On start up the Banshee was calm and silent. So it was one of those three changes that eliminated the problem. :dunno I not even going to try and guess which one, or backtrack the changes to find the culprit. And why did fuel level impact on the noise I'm just happy that it is gone and I can see how much difference it makes. It is a pity I didn't get a recording of the noise it sounded like all hell was breaking loose in the tank.
Regards Martin.
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Last Monday riding in traffic with 39C showing on the dash temp gauge (Jaycar) the brick started intermittently running rough and surging. Got it home and tried pressing the starter button while idling at 1000rpm. The 1000 rpm could only be obtained by using the fast idle, when pressed the engine died immediately, this showed that it was extremely rich. Further evidence of a black tail pipe confirmed this. I started suspecting incorrectly that my MAF sensor was at fault as a mates bike had suffered similarly a few years ago. I posted my problem on another site and got another couple of possibilities, kinked fuel return line and faulty temp sensor. When I fitted my fuel cooler I had to keep changing it's length and routing to prevent it from kinking. Eventually after 4-5 goes different routes and hose lengths I got it routed with no kinks. And I was fine for quite a few weeks, however I believe the 39C running in traffic softened the hose allowing it to collapse. It's sort of ironic that the device I fitted to solve hot running in traffic, was now actually the source of my problem. :hehehe I went up to Supercheap and got some heavier walled hose however as an added precaution I am trying to source a spring to go around the outside to prevent it doing the same. Preferably in stainless. A neighbor across the road has a mobile hose repair business so i'll try him first.
Regards Martin.